A silver lining? Duck Off Episode 7

[AJB Temple]

I agree. It looks horrible in the photo =D> Totem pole is a good description. I might do a bit of carving. It's just scaffolding really. And free.

It only took a day to make and half a day to install (everything takes twice as long as I think it should), and I may well either re-design it or get a steel in across the span. The actual roof drop in the centre is only 10mm and my only issue is pressure on the door rails. I can deal with that quite easily by doubling up the oak around the window, but I don't have a 6 metre beam here unfortunately and no prospect of getting one from my barn with this Covid lockdown. My usual supplier if I buy stuff has some 5metre stock, which would do it, but in reality there will be splits in the ends and I will lose at least 30cm.

It might, however, look better when the Fink truss bottom chords are clad all round in oak as is the intention. If you knew the insurance pay out (I can't post on a public forum) then you may understand why I decided to do this. :lol:

 

[rafezetter]

OK, I agree it looks a bit like my very own statue of "Christ the Redeemer" (Brazil) but this place has more oak than a forest and it will look in keeping when the room is finished.

I am in two minds on the point. Might snip it off. Took me all morning to erect it, getting it perfectly positioned, tight against the trusses, and dead on vertical. Luckily the floor has about two feet of reinforced concrete. The black limestone slabs are an inch thick and were fully bedded on wet mortar.

The most tricky job was getting a dead on accurate mortice hole that I could slot the arm through. The arm is 10 " deep by the way. It looks bigger in the photo than it does in real life in the room.

I like it actually - If it was my house I would put distances of interesting places along the two compass directions - or even "kitchen 3m" - "bathroom 5m". but that's just me - looks less like a cruciform then and more like a fun signpost.

Almost like you nicked it while out walking someplace nice one day in some dale or other, and put it up there.

(nasty email wasn't me, not even I'm that bad, and ppl call ME unstable)

 

[AJB Temple]

What kitchen shops charge

Jeepers!!!!!!!

I did consider getting the professionals in. We have more high end kitchen shops in Tunbridge Wells than anyone could possibly need. Ever. Plus B&Q, Wren, and the usual trade suppliers like Holdens or whatever they are called, that are all basically the same. And a few bespoke makers.

So I got a quote and a design from one of the high end ones. This was before businesses like this went off a cliff due to Covid 19. The designer largely ignored the brief. Annoying. The firm make all their own cabinetry - using birch ply and it’s good stuff. However - the quote was just shy of £60k plus VAT for the cabinets only: no appliances and no worktops. Plumbing, electrics and tiling all extra. Quote for worktops in quartz was £15k plus VAT.

I was totally astounded. I know for a fact (ie written quote) that I can get high quality quartz worktops templated, supplied and fitted for under £5k trade.

(I should add here - I used to run a property development business. I know what stuff costs).

And £72,000 inc VAT for cabinets. OK, it's a big kitchen. But this is madness. I am minded to say that super expensive kitchens are a middle class affectation. Sorry Dr Bob. I know yours are lovely.

 

[AJB Temple]

Fundamentals - what is this building for

I already have a kitchen, elsewhere in this rambling barn conversion. It probably was expensive in its day, but that day was round about 1992. By a strange quirk of fate it has in it now a range cooker designed by my brother who was a design engineer for a company that makes these things. We are agreed that this was not his finest hour.

For this kitchen my starting point was to decide what I wanted to do in there. First of all, the room is roughly 10 metres by 8 metres, excluding the utility room, which is bigger than plenty of restaurant kitchens. Hence it will also be a family room leading out to the best bit of the garden and a Koi pond (which if this Co-19 stuff goes on, will become a place to keep fish and lobsters alive as rations!)

I’m a serious cook, I’ve had a few kitchens and I know what I want. Sadly I can’t afford what I want. (Advice: do NOT get divorced). If I lived alone then frankly I would install a commercial type kitchen. But this is a family home and it needs to look in keeping with the building. We do not follow fashion.

At times I cook for 30 people. Obviously not right now as we are in lockdown. I have restaurant experience (not much, but I have worked some shifts in proper kitchens under serious chefs who indulged me). I know what I want and I will use a pro workflow, within the limitations of the building - of which the two most important are drainage and extraction.

The big snag with pro kit is it often lacks insulation (so hot) and can be quite noisy. Very high end, such as Athanor, is super expensive and really needs three phase.

 

[AJB Temple]

In the four weeks or so since I stopped this thread due to some unforeseen issues referred to earlier, I have spend half the time sorting out garden projects so I am well behind my self imposed schedule. It also transpires that it takes me twice as long to faff around making stuff as I estimated. Doing it on my own and starting from oversized sawn timber means lots of prep.

 

[AJB Temple]

All the gear and no idea

I started by accumulating the main appliances and I will design everything around this. If I could afford it these says I would love big sub-zero set of fridge with glass door / freezer / 12 case wine chiller, wolf ovens and hobs. But times is hard and I am economising.

We have bought practically all the appliances ex-display from kitchen show rooms doing refits. This has saved me two thirds as all the appliances are top end for basically budget prices. However, I have had to be willing to travel far and wide and buy things for cash. Guarantees preserved, but obviously some risk.

The basics are: 90cm singe zone Gaggenau induction hob. Pop up extractor unit same brand and heavy duty filters, plus the option of exhausting to outside. I would have liked commercial induction (thicker glass and far more powerful) and ovens, but don’t have three phase. Gaggenau Tepinyaki and two ring 5Kw gas burner (has to run off LPG as we have no mains gas). I will not use gas much but I don’t want to give up my copper pans yet. Built in deep fat fryer. Might put the latter in the utility room as hot fat stinks.

Gaggenau 90cm oven with rotisserie. These are very good - as good as Wolf IMO but not so expensive. Mine is unused ex display and was a fifth of new retail. Miele: steam oven, standard oven, coffee machine, warming drawer and sous vide drawer. Didn’t really want the coffee machine as I already have a Rocket double boiler which I love, but all this Miele stuff was a job lot that came out of a showroom unused and still under guarantee and was a total bargain.

Large undercounted double drawer fridge. This is a restaurant thing really. Main refrigeration will be in a different room, but all mise en place will be here.

Double ceramic sink (this is impossibly heavy Shaws of Darwin hand made unit that some very attractive lady in London sold brand new because it was too heavy for their kitchen and her units crumbled - 100cm wide and will take gastro pans). Takes two to lift it. My wife makes a right fuss when I get her to help. Grease trap (we have private drainage and I do not want my pipes blocked), WDU (will not use it much as we hot compost practically everything) and boiling water taps (Quooker probably), which saves me running a hot water supply in and they are cheaper to run than kettles. Allegedly.

Cold water is limescale and bacteria filtered. Water here is more scale than water. It comes from Bewl water which is a big lake nearby. Possibly via Wales. Not sure. They publish water quality readings on line.

Big refrigeration and most noisy stuff will go in the separate utility room. Mostly Gaggenau and Miele. All bought in sales and saved up for use.

So everything revolves around this lot. I am still not fully certain how I will lay it out.

 

[AJB Temple]

Tomorrow you get my design thoughts and some pictures. Wifey is relaxing the rules a bit.

 

[MikeG.]

Tomorrow you get my design thoughts and some pictures.

Excellent! Then we'll know what you're trying to achieve.

Wifey is relaxing the rules a bit.

You let your wife see what you're posting? #-o

 

[AJB Temple]

Design plans (as opposed to actual design :? )

I’m always interested in people who post up their detailed designs in SketchUp or some similar programme. If you are hoping to see that here you are doomed to disappointment. I wish I could knock up a lovely sketch up diagram, but I am so busy making stuff and cooking, that I never get round to learning any of these systems. Such is life.

Most of the time I do a design pretty much entirely in my mind. In visual and constructional detail. This includes visualising joints and exactly how I will (attempt) to make them. If I am making a building then I will do a scale drawing on paper sufficient to meet planning needs, and mark up accurate dimensions. But if I am making a piece of furniture or, as here, an island and a bank of units, drawers and cupboards along a wall, then the most I will do is a sketched plan.

Example of the wall side unit that will hold the sink. I wasted almost a minute on this fine example of technical drawing. Leonardo would be jealous.

Almost always, I make things in situ, or at least in my workshop which is within 100m walking distance of where the thing will end up. For the kitchen island I am being extra sophisticated. I intended to make the kitchen Island first, but things didn't work out that way for various reasons.

First of all I made an accurate scale plan on the floor. This is it. Or a bit of it.

I used a bit of sharp chalk to improve accuracy. You can see my thought processes in action, as my first design looked a bit short. So I carefully altered it by adding a bit on at each end. If you look closely you will see my “workings”.

Then I made a scale model as a kind of proof of concept. These carefully positioned legs are actually 100% scale (aka 1:1 in planner speak) as they are offcuts from 4 years ago of exactly the same lumps of wood I will use for the legs.

This was critically important as I needed to work out if I wanted 6 or 8 legs. This was an easy decision to make as I could only be bothered to lug six bits from my offcuts graveyard. I decided that just six 6” by 6” legs might just about be strong enough to hold up a glorified table. Could be touch and go?

 

[AJB Temple]

We will come back to the Island and how it is made, but for various reasons I ended up up doing the wall side first. Construction principles are the same.

First photo is the sink unit which was derived from my brilliant drawing above. All joints are mortice and tenon (usually concealed mortice) except for the two sink upright supports which are screwed as well (the screws will not be visible in the end). Sink weighs 85kg empty.

This shows the run. 18mm ply is set into bottom rebates all round, done with a half inch router before assembly. Just loose fitted for now. Same for the top. 18mm birch ply.

 

[MikeG.]

This looks seriously promising! Great fun, with those big lumps of wood.

 

[AJB Temple]

Thanks Mike.

I have detailed construction photos, but for the Island, so this ends up a bit out of order.

The sink has a problem:

I had the manufacturers dimension drawing for this Shaws of Darwin hand made sink. The drawing shows perpendicular sides. However, the actual sink has a distinct top to bottom taper. I did have the sink on site, but did not get down on the ground to eyeball it and make sure it matched the drawing exactly. I would have made tapered legs if I had realised.

I will either remake the legs or fit a tapered infill.

I need the sink support to be adjustable, as these sinks, being hand made, need a bit of fiddling with to make them drain optimally. The support system accommodates that and the considerable weight.

 

[AJB Temple]

The sharp eyed among you will have noticed that I have not made standard kitchen cabinets. :roll:

I just don't get why people are so obsessed with making and fitting boxes. I am making on site and fully bespoke, so I am engineering this to give me maximum flexibility with layout.

At present all the tops come off and I can easily slot in partitioning or supports for shelving, drawers etc. I need the flexibility as I need to fit in some things that I have not decided on yet, including the grease trap system and the exact location of a pop up extractor, along with the large size Quooker boiler.

Most gear storage will be in the separate utility room that you can't see.

Eventually the top will probably be white quartz. The floor tiles are black limestone and when finished look jet black.

 

[AJB Temple]

You will also have spotted that there are no adjustable legs and no provision for plinths.

I do not need adjustable legs because I build stuff level. 8)

Did I mention I really, really hate plinths? Their main function, in my experience, is a) to hide cheap plastic adjustable legs b) to enable builders to save a few bob by not tiling right up to the wall c) to provide a place for all the trades to hide rubbish they can't be bothered to clean up d) act as a hidey hole for spider breeding.

I hate spiders more than I hate plinths. The base on mine is deliberately high so you can see right underneath it, and I can get the floor washer right under there too. It makes floor washing far better. No marks from shoes stubbing the plinth either.

Also a design feature is the finished work surface will be just under 4cm higher than standard. I am reasonably tall, and it does my back in stooping for prep or cooking.

 

[AJB Temple]

Happy to answer any questions, hear any criticisms, ideas etc.

Tomorrow I will be picking up on tools and then how the joints were done. There are special measures needed with oak of this kind of size.

 

[AndyT]

Interesting stuff. Will some of that work stay visible? Those big strong legs at least?

 

[AJB Temple]

Yes, the oak posts will be visible in the finished product and most of the front rails.

This was not how I originally intended to do this kitchen, but I am on enforced 12 week lockdown and to a large extent I decided to use materials that I already had.

I am also not spending much money - to a large extent most of the wood I am using is free to me. Hence I have to accept some compromises.

 

[AJB Temple]

Green oak?

Two people have asked about this by email. Basically the theme is “are you mad using green oak for joinery or cabinetry”.

Yes - but I’m not. When I say “green oak” that is how I think of it. However - reality is different. All of the oak that went into our own store fell in a dramatic storm in October 1987 and was sawn and in a farmyard barn within two years. (dozens of trees). So in essence, apart from the on site milling cost which is long since forgotten, most of my wood is basically free. We also planted thousands of whips, some of which are now getting to be proper trees. So the cut stuff has been drying for 30 years now. I call it green because it was originally, but you might consider that it has dried a bit in that time.

Some has been sold, some has been used, most of what was left was relocated for practical reasons. However, it’s mostly in Warwickshire and some is in Surrey - and I now live in Kent. So for smaller quantities I buy green oak from a very good local supplier, as it can be cheaper to do that (trade) than pay for extraction and haulage from my own stock, bizarre as that might sound. My biggest problem is that a lot of my English oak stock is pretty sizeable. Everything I sell goes for at least double per cubic foot what I pay for green French or English oak.

A lot of the small dimension oak is English and from my own 30 year old stock. It might be a bit damp on the outside from the wet winter we had and a few barn leaks, but wood is not a sponge. Bit of rain on the outside of old wood doesn’t penetrate far.

So everything has been sticked up and dry for at least three years, 5 years or 30 years and it’s been under cover since then and although it started life “green” I would expect it to be stable now.

 

[MikeG.]

I used a little tapered infill piece either side of my sink, which is much the same as yours. However, I'd spotted the slope, so left a little bigger gap and thus the infill doesn't taper to nothing. I set it back from the face, to make it a feature rather than a faux pas.

As to the kickboard thing........your kitchen is so large that you can afford to have the bottom shelf much higher than normal. The space you lose is trivial given the acres of storage you'll have. In a more constrained kitchen that space becomes important, so the shelf is lower, meaning the area under the bottom shelf isn't accessible for cleaning. It's then a good place for dog hair, kids toys and food detritus to mingle.

And the adjustable legs...........well, that's more a question of the floor being level rather than units being square*. I hate them too, and so make the wooden frame extend to the floor . If a sliver needs to come off a leg here and there I don't find that too onerous a task.

*Actually, it's driven by the nature of the chipboard box. You can't extend that to the floor (because the first spill in the kitchen destroys them), so you've got to screw on some legs.

 

[AJB Temple]

Thats helpful Mike. The sink is not fixed in place yet as I am waiting for the bottle traps (chromed brass) to arrive, so I will experiment with an infill.

I detest chipboard. It goes back to childhood when I used to make airfix models. I was very proud of a model of the Bismark I had done, so I tried to make a chipboard display box for it. Then tried to paint it white. I didn't realise, aged about 10 I guess, that you cannot get the stuff smooth. Since then I have always been of the view that it is not fit for anything at all.