A Sign From God....???

[Midnight]

So I'm working on a slab of oak, done the cross grain work, done the skew cutting and switched to the #7 to work along the grain. I'm checking periodically with the long straight edge to see where the high spots are, when it happens.... just when you think you're JUST about there... that sickening judder... lift the plane off the board and sure as hell.... hoochie coochie dance steps all over the place (tear out to the handraulicly challenged). The Mk1 grouchy stomp outa the workshop was put on hold due to the high potential of impaling my butt on a half dozen sash clamps on the project in progress...
So I'm having a cig break, trying to figure why this damn plane can work fine one minute and tear out the next when the only thing that's variable is the effort I'm putting into eash stroke... when it comes to me. The damn thing's flexing in the middle.
The rest of the afternoon is spent repairing the damage and discussing whether or not to try to upgrade the #7 with after market blades / cap irons or to replace it. It doesn't take too long to figure that no matter what blade is in it, it's still gonna flex......
So I reach for the Bible; Gosple according to Axminster... 3 choices come to mind.
Do I spend £200+ on a Clifton
Do I spend £300+ on a Lie Nielson #7
Do I spend £350+ on a Lie-Nielson #8

From what I've read, cliftons are liked by their users... but then, so are Stanleys among the die hards.... to me, £200 is a chitloada cash to spend on a "suck it an see"...
So I'm still undecided... log on when the arms have cried enough for one night..... download my mail.... and there..... right before my eyes.... an e-mail from God Himself..... Mr Thomas Lie Nielson......
I'm sat gawping at it for 5 mins before I opened it...(I swear I'll never clean the mouse again)....

Surely this is a "sign"...????

 

[DaveL]

So just how much is he going to pay you for looking after a full selection of he magic wears? :wink:
Of course you will have to use them just to check they do really work :lol:

 

[CYC]

... and so what did god say to you??? :evil:

 

[Philly]

Midnight,
There seems to be a fair bit of Clifton bashing going on- I own a no.4 and no.5 and they are a pleasure to use. I also own some Lie-nielsen planes and whilst I love them and agree that they are worth the extra money there is not a lot between them. When you compare them to Record/Stanley planes of today they are in a totally different league. Don't be afraid to go for the Clifton-you will not be disappointed! (and they are made in Britain-when did you see that last on a product)
Merry Christmas,
Philly
( in Proud To Be British mode ) :wink:

 

[Alf]

So I reach for the Bible; Gosple according to Axminster... 3 choices come to mind.
Do I spend £200+ on a Clifton
Do I spend £300+ on a Lie Nielson #7
Do I spend £350+ on a Lie-Nielson #8

Or Ray Iles as per the other thread of course... (From St Ray's Letter to the Galoots, Ch.3 v 3-6) Too bad you missed the pre-owned, never used L-N #8 Pennyfarthing Tools had earlier this month; would have saved you a bit of cash.

an e-mail from God Himself..... Mr Thomas Lie Nielson......

Nah, he's too nice to be God. I just can't see him doing any smiting, or spending 3 days on the L-N stand at Westpoint... Possibly he's somewhere near the right hand of God though, ready to hand him the appropriate plane for the next job I expect.

I'm sat gawping at it for 5 mins before I opened it...(I swear I'll never clean the mouse again)....

Did I mention my block plane that he signed? I swear it works better... :lol:

Surely this is a "sign"...????

Yes indeedy. But as it's the time for goodwill to all men, I won't say what of... :wink:

Cheers, Alf

Who'll never bash a Clifton, 'cos it ain't ductile iron so it'd break :wink:

 

[Scrit]

.... just when you think you're JUST about there... that sickening judder... .... hoochie coochie dance steps all over the place ... ... then it comes to me. The damn thing's flexing in the middle.
The rest of the afternoon is spent repairing the damage and discussing whether or not to try to upgrade the #7 with after market blades / cap irons or to replace it. It doesn't take too long to figure that no matter what blade is in it, it's still gonna flex......

Wellll, if you replace the plane and cap irons it is going to get better, but it may not be a complete cure, so the other things to do would be to close-up the mouth a lot AND grind a 5 degree back bevel on the iron - that way you have a temporary York pitch (this works better on thick irons).

Of course, you could always buy that L-N, but before splashing out that kind of dosh I would have thought it might be worth taking a look at the old wooden jointers you see on flea markets, etc - good size (28 to 30 inch was popular), thick iron and cap iron, wedged iron (so better clamped than a metal lever cap, and absorbs vibration more, too...), iron carried on a full, solid bed (wayyyyy better than any Bedrock). And you can adjust mouth opening by shimming with veneers. The only thing they lack is a fiddly adjuster. I've just had a thought - Alf, have you been greasing the slope again?...... :lol:

Scrit

P.S. Just realised this was my bi-centennial post. Ho, hum, next goalpost must be 500....

 

[Alf]

Alf, have you been greasing the slope again?...... :lol:

Who? Me? 8) For some people it's just unnecessary extra grease. :lol:

Cheers, Alf

Who can spot a thinly disguised "I want a shiny new jointer" post at a 100 yards. "Tear out" my foot; bet he did it on purpose... :wink:

 

[Midnight]

There seems to be a fair bit of Clifton bashing going on-

Philly... don't get me wrong, I'm NOT bashing Cliftons, plane makers or otherwise. It's just that to me, they're an unknwn comodity and after being burned once already with a jointer, I don't need another potential disapointment.

As for British made..... I'm afraid to say the last time I saw that was 20 mins ago, it's cast into the beds of my Stanleys...

 

[Scrit]

As for British made..... I'm afraid to say the last time I saw that was 20 mins ago, it's cast into the beds of my Stanleys...

I'll respond by saying the same thing about "Made in the USA", as cast into some of my Stanleys.... And they're not universally wonderful, either...

Anyone tried the Veritas #6, BTW

Just stirring the pot...

Scrit

 

[Midnight]

Wellll, if you replace the plane and cap irons it is going to get better, but it may not be a complete cure, so the other things to do would be to close-up the mouth a lot AND grind a 5 degree back bevel on the iron - that way you have a temporary York pitch (this works better on thick irons).

Scrit... that's true enough, however none of it will change the core of the prob... that the bed of the plane was flexing at the mouth.
As for wooden bodies... I'll confess to more than a hint of curiosity... however, like the Cliftons, I feel that starting the discovery curve with a jointer isn't the way to go... baby steps first.. yea..???

 

[Scrit]

....none of it will change the core of the prob... that the bed of the plane was flexing at the mouth.

I still find it a little hard to believe that the plane casting was flexing. My understanding of judder is that after you've resharpened the cutter, corrected the positioning and fit of the cap iron, etc. that the next area to look into was the iron and it's bedding - not the body. I'd also try a little experiment, here. Sharpen and put a good burr on a scraper, then try to scrape the affected area. If it cuts clean that suggests that a front bevel (to give a higher effective pitch) may be in order. That was pretty much standard advice - if you get tear-out resharpen, rehone, tighten everything up, take a shallower cut and if all else fails, reach for the scrapers.....

If you aren't sure about going to a full woodie (which is seriuosly cheap, Alf, any ideas?), have you thought about a Stanley Transitional? (something like a #32) Same sort of adjuster mechanism and iron, but a wooden bottom with a nice solid bed - mind you, they also benefit from a thicker iron/cap iron, too...... Or there's also the ECE Emmerich wooden jointer (made in Germany).

I think Alf may have been right, you really just want an excuse to buy a new jointer :wink:

Scrit

 

[Alf]

Just to toss into the pot: deflection and skitter and chatter

Woodies; well they're so cheap none of the dealers ever advertise them so I haven't a clue what the going rate is. I must say using a woodie jack is to be highly recommended; great fun and easier to adjust than first appears. Jeff Gorman stikes again. I think we're wasting our time though, Scrit.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Midnight]

Yes indeedy. But as it's the time for goodwill to all men, I won't say what of...

I'm in good company then.... :wink:

I still find it a little hard to believe that the plane casting was flexing. My understanding of judder is that after you've resharpened the cutter, corrected the positioning and fit of the cap iron, etc. that the next area to look into was the iron and it's bedding - not the body

.

I donno what else it could be Scrit... blade had been honed on an 8000 grit water stone not 5 mins before; when I stripped it back down again, it was still shaving hairs off the back of my wrist. The frog is set so that the rear of the blade just clears the rear of the mouth (Mk1 *** paper clearence) following a disasterous attempt to set the mouth for a fine shaving. Blade depth was set to take consistant 0.05mm shavings. There wasn't any debris between the frog and the blade nor between the blade and the chip breaker...
Re-assembled, readjusted and put to work again..... no tear out... the only thing that changed was the effort I was putting into it.....

Just to toss into the pot: deflection

Nope.... wasn't that....
and skitter and chatter
nor that neither..
just a single butt ugly ragged edged houk outa the surface.

As for the woodies... I canna shake the reaction that "fine tuning" a precision tool by beatin the chit out of it with an 'ammer..... is just plain (plane??) wrong.....!!!!! Call me a boring old fart..... but I'll stick with somethin that's adjusted with a machined thread.

As for the #7.... it's in the mail...

Ohhhh...... before I forget.... CYC.... TLN's mail was re his pending line of chisels...

 

[Alf]

Ohhhh...... before I forget.... CYC.... TLN's mail was re his pending line of chisels...

Aaarrgghh!!! What about the chisels?! Are they going on sale at last?! Obsessed minds have to know or there'll be no peace this festive season. :shock:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Scrit]

I donno what else it could be Scrit... blade had been honed on an 8000 grit water stone not 5 mins before; when I stripped it back down again, it was still shaving hairs off the back of my wrist.

Yes, but that's no guarantee that the blade and its back iron won't flex. Cast-iron is a lot more rigid than steel, and in any case the castings are effectively webbed which also increases rigidity. I think that what you'll find with the LN is that it is a combination of the thicker blade and thicker chipbreaker which are doing the work, and that the Bedrock bed is a secondary feature. I've swapped some of my thinner irons for thicker ones (thanks Ray Iles, Ron Hock et al) in conjunction with Stay-Set cap irons (original Record, but very like the new Cliftons) and the results are very encouraging - the thicker iron/chipbreaker DON'T flex as much and the new irons DO hold a better edge for longer. But they still aren't as good as a woodie in some instances. That's why a woody makes some sense as it will either prove or disprove what I am saying... BTW, you seem to have a very unhealthily un-Scottish desire to throw pound notes at your problem...... :lol:

Call me a boring old fart..... but I'll stick with somethin that's adjusted with a machined thread.

That's a pity, because in that case you'll NEVER experience the joy of planing up a sash window entirely by hand - all the moulding planes I've ever used are the tap it with a hammer variety and properly tuned are a JOY to use.... (see Alf, it even gets to me at times)

Merry Christmas

Scrit

 

[Midnight]

Aaarrgghh!!! What about the chisels?! Are they going on sale at last?! Obsessed minds have to know or there'll be no peace this festive season

.

Alf... This was part of the L-N news letter I subscribe to. I gotta hand it to them, beautiful chisels.

CHISEL UPDATE

We have been experimenting with our own A2 chisels for some time, and are very
happy with the prototypes. We are not in production yet, but hope to be within the
next few months.

Our first chisels are based on the Stanley 750 bevel edge socket chisels, with an
overall length of 9 to 9 1/2". Maine-grown Hornbeam handles. We will begin with the
following sizes: 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 3/4 and 1".


Click on the link for a preview.

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/chisel.html

 

[Midnight]

Yes, but that's no guarantee that the blade and its back iron won't flex.

This is true... however, having the back of the blade barely a gnats' bollock from touching the rear of the mouth, there's noplace for the blade to flex INTO. I'm satisfied that I got that one covered.

the castings are effectively webbed which also increases rigidity. I think that what you'll find with the LN is that it is a combination of the thicker blade and thicker chipbreaker which are doing the work, and that the Bedrock bed is a secondary feature.

I spent a half hour this morning comparing the differences between the two, side by side. The primary difference in the design of the bodies of the planes is the vast difference in the sizes and shapes of the webs; the L-N bedrock has HUGE webs compared to the Stanley, and yet the two are pretty similar weight wise. That struck me as a sensible use of the material available to the designer, as opposed to simply using it as ballast. Thicker, longer and higher webs placed to reinforce the weakest part of the body when subjected to compressive loads would more than compensate for the flexibility of the steel. The side by side comparisons of the chip breakers was surprizing, the L-N is made from material of similar thickness. I guess that's why they now offer an "improved" chip breaker. However, that's where the similarities end.

But they still aren't as good as a woodie in some instances. That's why a woody makes some sense as it will either prove or disprove what I am saying...

You could have a point here. As I said previously, I've no experience of using woodies so I won't argue the issue. However, I WILL say that the L-N lifetime warranty on the tool DOES have it's compensations should anything go wrong. Couple that with the ability to switch the plane to York pitch inside 4 mins... I'd say I got a hellova tool in my hands. A Frog shared is a potential doubled...??? Sometimes throwing cash WISELY at a prob has its compensations; I guess that's why God made us Scots just that wee bit.. better :wink:

 

[Alf]

Mike,

Aww, was that all? They've been saying that for months. Maybe even years... I'm gutted. They are indeed beautiful chisels, and I have everything crossed that they might be available in time for my birthday next year; it being a "special" one, I have a tad more leeway on upper price limit than usual. :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Michel]

Hi Midnight,

Can you tell me if your lie-nielsen plane came with the new improved chipbreaker (flat).

I asked axminster and they told me the planes don't come with any chipbreaker :? but can be ordered.

I think they might be a bit confused (must come with some form of chipbreaker) :wink:

Rgds

Michel

 

[Midnight]

Can you tell me if your lie-nielsen plane came with the new improved chipbreaker (flat).

Michael..

Both the L-N Bedrocks I have came with the standard chip breaker.