a glossier finish?

[sunnybob]

I've reached a stage now where I am happy with the boxes I make in all respects except finishing.

I sand to 360 and use use wipe on poly, and its fair to middlin, but I'm looking for more gloss.

Without starting a 400 page argument (its not about sharpening, honest!) could I get some suggestions how to make the finish brighter, especially on the end grain.

I'm using hardwoods only, such as walnut, rosewood, cherry, bubinga, etc. Not interested in matt or satin, I want a french polish finish (I think, because I really have no idea).

Do things like sanding sealer, and shellac, make a really BIG difference to gloss?

 

[custard]

To get an ultra gloss finish you'll probably need to grain fill. Many finishes just sink into the grain pores as they dry, so trying to grain fill can turn into a never ending job. There's lots of options, but three practical methods are adding a separate grain filling stage to your finishing routine (for really open grained timbers this almost becomes mandatory if you want to get the job done in a realistic time), using a two pack finish to build up a thick finish which is then cut back (can look a little "encapsulated in plastic" for some tastes), or french polishing and using one of the well established bodying up routines to grain fill (on finer grain timbers like Cherry this is all you need, on more open timbers like Walnut you may want to grain fill before, or incorporate some pumice into the bodying up stage). Personally I'd use french polish on a lightly handled item like a box, you really can't beat the "brightness" of french polishing. The problem you might have though is temperature, I've never french polished in your temperatures, but I know on a hot day in the UK (ho, ho, ho) I find french polishing a bit of chore as the meths evaporates so fast. Having said that one of the best polishers I ever met learnt his craft in Israel, so it's certainly possible.

One other thing, grain filling end grain is just a pig of a job. The best option is simply sanding to far finer grits than normal.

Good luck!

 

[CHJ]

Do things like sanding sealer, and shellac, make a really BIG difference to gloss?

Apparent gloss level relies on the amount of light being reflected off a surface, in the case of clear wood finishes this is the underlying prepared wood surface.

Applying Sanding Sealer to the wood hardens up and supports the surface wood fibres and fills the minute pores (think of them as minute light absorbing black holes), subsequent de-nibbing of this sealed surface and subsequent burnishing of this surface (with the same grit last used on the wood) levels off any minute fibre ends protruding above the mean of the surface together with any surplus sealer fillers.
There will inevitably be a dust film left on the surface so a wipe over with a Tack Cloth is needed to remove it and its ability to scatter the light.

Then it's a case of applying the same principals to any protective finish applied, ensure there is an even blemish/contaminant free coating that does not scatter the light.

Well that's my take on achieving the best gloss, although I'm happy to be proved wrong in my understanding and with my own stuff settle for a mechanically de-nibbed and buffed surface finish that reduces the dust contaminant problem.

Although relating to polishing Coloured work the WIP by Kim Gowney gives a good rundown of the effort involved.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Try Rustin's Plastic Coating.

 

[ED65]

Bob, I think because bandsaw boxes are more akin to turned forms than regular box work I think you'd do well to go with some of the practices turner's use to finish.

On flat-sided stuff 360 is already sanding more finely than many do and it's possible to get more gloss than you want sanding only to around the 220 mark, but turners regularly sand to much finer grits than that in combination with various techniques to achieve a grain-filled surface on the woods that need the help.

As far as the end grain goes prepare yourself for there being no easy solution. In addition to it being generally difficult the end grain of some species is particularly difficult to finish to a uniform sheen with the adjacent long grain. In short the coarser the end grain structure the harder it is to build a uniform shine.

The main trick that's usually helpful for end grain is sanding it much finer than the long grain, to 600 grit or higher, but with no clear demarcation between end-grain and long-grain surfaces it's hard to target it specifically. So many turners end up sanding everything much more finely.

Do things like sanding sealer, and shellac, make a really BIG difference to gloss?

Sort of, but given enough time no. Shellac and varnish can be about the same gloss, other things being equal. Apply some of each to glass and see what you think yourself once they've dried. It's just that with shellac you can build towards a uniform gloss much more quickly than without, so in a given timeframe you can get more gloss with shellac than without. But that's not to say shellac is actually glossier than varnish.

 

[profchris]

As an interim step you might try whether your wipe-on poly will take a better shine. I'm assuming your current finish is what you get once the wipe-on finish has dried.

Once the poly is fully cured (7 days +), wet sand using wet and dry paper until the surface is uniformly matt - I use P600 followed by P100 on my instruments. Then you need to buff up the surface - I find that automotive paint reviver/abrasive (T-Cut seems to be the UK standard) works very well. Apply as directed, but use a backing block to support the cloth (cork seems good). You might well find that you get a good enough shine this way. End grain will definitely require filling though.

I used shellac (initially brushed on and then wiped on, with the same wet sanding/T-Cut to buff up), and this gives a deep sheen rather than a high gloss twinkle, which is the effect I'm after.

Here's an example using shellac:

 

[sunnybob]

To get an ultra gloss finish you'll probably need to grain fill. Many finishes just sink into the grain pores as they dry, so trying to grain fill can turn into a never ending job. There's lots of options, but three practical methods are adding a separate grain filling stage to your finishing routine (for really open grained timbers this almost becomes mandatory if you want to get the job done in a realistic time), using a two pack finish to build up a thick finish which is then cut back (can look a little "encapsulated in plastic" for some tastes), or french polishing and using one of the well established bodying up routines to grain fill (on finer grain timbers like Cherry this is all you need, on more open timbers like Walnut you may want to grain fill before, or incorporate some pumice into the bodying up stage). Personally I'd use french polish on a lightly handled item like a box, you really can't beat the "brightness" of french polishing. The problem you might have though is temperature, I've never french polished in your temperatures, but I know on a hot day in the UK (ho, ho, ho) I find french polishing a bit of chore as the meths evaporates so fast. Having said that one of the best polishers I ever met learnt his craft in Israel, so it's certainly possible.

One other thing, grain filling end grain is just a pig of a job. The best option is simply sanding to far finer grits than normal.

Good luck!

You mention "two pack". my ignorance is boundless. Can you expand on that please?
Is "grain fill" the same as sanding sealer?

"or french polishing and using one of the well established bodying up routines to grain fill"
i'm afraid its not well established at all to me, more info please.

Temperature... oh yes, that one I understand. I've had to use air con in a bedroom to take the box and poly down to 20c in the past to get a good finish. Luckily we are in the last couple weeks of 30 plus, so by the time I get my act together the temp should not be too much of a problem.

The box I am having a problem with at the moment is laminated vertically with walnut and bubinga. Unfortunately, due to my "suck it and see" approach, the two woods have cross grains.
The walnut is fine, but I managed to put the bubinga end grain on the top of the box instead of the side. The side view is fantastic. The top is dull and lifeless.

 

[custard]

Grain fillers are different to sanding sealers, for one thing they contain less solvents and don't shrink as much. Grain fillers used to be a standard finishing stage, particularly on darker timbers where they were often used to stain at the same time. On paler timbers the best grain filler I've come across is a water based product, AquaCoat, the main problem with it is the price.

Bodying up is the first stage of traditional french polishing, you use a heavier cut and it's largely a grain filling process. On really open grain timbers you can add a pinch of pumice, which grinds away a little of the timber and forces this into the grain. If you use a mix of light and dark timbers don't use pumice, it'll transfers dark wood dust into the pores of the paler wood. I know professional polishers who are skilled enough to do this, but despite french polishing for over thirty years I wouldn't be confident of getting it right. It's also one of those ****-ups that's irreversible as spirits won't clear away that embedded wood/polish/pummice amalgam.

Two pack finishes are like this,

https://www.rustins.ltd/rustins/our-pro ... ener-gloss

it's the most bomb proof finish you'll get outside of a professional spray shop. In my experience it tends to be used at opposite ends of the spectrum. It either gets slapped on to bar tops in rough pubs, or it's used on masterpiece guitars and the type of furniture you see at the Cheltenham Festival of Craftsmanship. I don't see it much used on the 99% of furniture that sits between these extremes, probably because it either looks a gloopy mess or you spend hours burnishing it to a mirror finish.

 

[marcros]

Custard

You mention aquacoat on paler timbers. Do you dye it for darker timbers like mahogany or walnut, or do you use a different product?

Thanks
Mark

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Two pack finishes are like this,

https://www.rustins.ltd/rustins/our-pro ... ener-gloss

it's the most bomb proof finish you'll get outside of a professional spray shop. In my experience it tends to be used at opposite ends of the spectrum. It either gets slapped on to bar tops in rough pubs ...

It is actually a perfect finish for bar counters - it tougher than hell and above all from the point of view of actually doing the job, they are flat surfaces which makes finishing to a decent standard easy. I can take you to two I did 28 and 30 years ago that are now getting worn through on the edges.
One beauty of this (type of) finish is that you can pick and choose the amount of gloss - if it's a bit flat, polish it more, if it's a bit too shiny, cut it back. It's entirely up to you.

 

[sunnybob]

But can it fly?
Just about every thing I find I need cant be put on a plane.
I shall have to go to my super store and ask for the greek equivalent.

 

[custard]

You mention aquacoat on paler timbers. Do you dye it for darker timbers like mahogany or walnut, or do you use a different product?

Personally I keep expensive Aquacoat for problem timbers like Ash, in other words open grain but where you don't want the yellowing that comes with oil based finishes, so I've only used it neat. However, that's just my preference, I'm not aware of any reason why you couldn't add water based stain to Aquacoat, or stain as a separate stage after grain filling.