1/2 Inch Router (Why Living in England Sux)

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Dave,

Thanks for your input.

I've actually now bought a Makita. 1850w 6kg weight.

Very pleased. Plenty of power with no sign of struggling at all unlike my old Bosch 900w. I was going to get a Porter Cable 1300w but decided in the end to stick with the bigger motor.

As I said, nice router but crap fence!!

Regards
 
It's a shame, alot of routers do seem to come with a kind of 'bog standard' fence, they all look the same.

SOme of the trend routers come with really good fences.
 
An interesting discussion, littered with conjecture and assumptions. A motor with lower rated wattage could indeed produce more torque than higher wattage motor.

HP is not a measure of torque, as torque is a measurement of the rotational output or force described by a linear expression, i.e. pounds feet or newton metres.

HP is indeed just another way to express the power of motor and can be directly related to wattage.

The ability of the device to maintian tool tip speed under load is the critical factor, this is torque. The torsional ability of the motor is related to the available power and, this bit is important, also other physical characteristics of the motor, i.e. whether it is a serial wound or compound wound motor, whether it is induction or brush, what is the thickness of the copper winding, how good is the insulation between the windings, how well has the motor been wound, etc, etc, etc.

So the long and the short of it is, there is not a really easy way to describe the actual useability of the device other than tried and trusted user reviews.

Practice is always better than bland theory. Shows the value of these forums really and the benefits of shared experience. :)
 
Graham,

So Rutlands could have been right when they told me their 1300w PC router was not necessarily underpowered compared to say a Makita 1850w?
 
you can bet your life that most of the router motors are made by the same chinese company :D

A motor with lower rated wattage could indeed produce more torque than higher wattage motor.

could do yes, but as most routers have roughly the same power delivery and probably the same types of motor (i think 99% are dc motors with 2 brushes), then i probably think not.
There would have to be a considerable difference in motor structure for a 1300W router to produce more torque than a 1800W one. ie significanty more motor windings on the lower powered motor, or a gearbox

The torsional ability of the motor is related to the available power
- agreed

assuming :
1) similar motor constructions
2) similar motor efficiencies
3) similar power delivery systems

higher powered motors will have higher torque. (as a general rule of thumb)
 
I've ordered the 7539 which is 1300 w. I wanted around 1800w because of better power. Rutlands were talking about the 1300w PC having more torque or something like that and that lower wattage didnt always mean lower power. Can anyone confirm this cos I don't want to end up with something underpowered.


debates aside, this is the quote from a previous post, and is the one which highlights just how much crap some retailers are prepared to give the customer to confirm a sale.

it makes me angry that some people (not just in woodworking) get talked into buying kit by sales personnel who know very little about the item for sale (t.v.s and computers are GREAT examples............. the many hours I`ve spent at PC world and Dixons laughing at some of the crap the sales people come out with :D )
 
Steven,

You are pretty much saying the same as me and I agree, sales people will tell you anything to get a quick buck. The motor in a router will not be DC though cos it runs of a mains AC supply and there is no rectifier. The Italians also make lots of motors for power tools, not just the Chinese.

Just as well the French don't make the motors, they would surrender and give up before the cutting even started.

Matstro,

Yep, Rutlands could well be true in what they say, however maybe their description could be better. They should have said the lower power rating of this device will not make any difference in real terms to the actual typical useability of the device compared to a 1800W Makita, etc.

Just to add to the confusion the power rating quoted by the manufacturer is not always like for like with what the other makers might be saying.

I.e. maybe PC say 1300W basing this upon 3 hours use at 90% loading whilst the Makita is 1800W for 3mins maximum at 100% loading.

I am just making the above percentages up but there is no standard to which these manufacturers have to base there ratings.

Again, this demonstrates the value of these forums, if you come back and tell us you have used your Makita for 3 hours non stop, full depth routing of laminate workbenches then we will KNOW it is tough enough.
 
Graham,

Thanks again, You're too tech. for me but I think I understand!!!

To digress a bit. I'm going to recount a funny story relating to my purchase and subsequent return for refund of the Porter Cable router.

Watch this space!
 
The motor in a router will not be DC though cos it runs of a mains AC supply and there is no rectifier.

I have three routers, I can`t vouch for the big freud, but i know for a fact that my other 2 both came with spare brushes.
i.e. dc motors

Both also have soft-start, with the electronics involved there, I`m pretty sure there would be a rectifier involved.

anyhow are`nt induction motors bigger than dc motors (in general, for the same power), require more complex electronics to drive them, i.e. not really suitable for a router???


I`m a little confussed as to how available power has anything to do with load???
I think you may be getting confussed by "available power" and "power delivered". The power stated by a manufacturer would most certainly be "available power" i.e. the maximum power that can be "supplied" {bad word to choose i know!!!!} by the router.


i don`t want people to think I`m arguing, if you don`t debate these things then you never learn anything.

I completely agree with what you say about using the router, i would be far more inclined to buy a router that "feels" nicer, and is better made than one which is more powerfull.
 
Steven,

I know you are not arguing and it is better to ask and find out.

The motor is still AC even although it uses brushes. If it was DC the motor wouldn't turn.

My coment about load was the physical resistance operating against the router bit, which is the physical resistance of the wood being cut.

This causes an electrical loading upon the motor.

The best way to explain this is to try an experiment. Using an electrical drill turn the chuck slowly by hand, it will move with little physical resistance. The chuck is connected (via a clutch and gearing) to the drill rotor, the central bit of the motor, that spins within stator or the cage of the motor. On a brush motor the stator has big magnets.

As it turns slowly the magnets induce an electrical current (as an AC waveform, i.e. positive to negative) within the windings of the rotor but not enough to notice. If you turn the chuck fast by hand you will notice resistance, this is the electrical current genrated within the rotor windings increasing enough to cause an electrical resisitance, that is the AC waveform going from positive to negative is strong enough to cause an opposing force against the magnets.

So when the power is on, the AC waveform causes the rotor windings to change polarity from positive to negative 50 times per second (electro magnetic force, EMF, some people say electro motive force), this then causes attraction and opposition to the polarity of the magnets making the rotor spin.

With no physical load against the movement of rotation the rotor will happily spin and not actually draw or consume much power. When the resistance against the bit increases the motor requires more power to maintain its speed of rotation as it has to increase the EMF of the rotor.

As the power increases then other characteristics change within the motor, mainly heat. As the windings get hotter the resistance changes effecting the current which changes the power that can be sustained under load. So each device has a maximum sustainable power rating before the windings overheat and melt.

The ability of the motor to continue is speed of rotation under load is torque, so a very well designed and constructed motor could produce more torque at a lower power rating than an inferior quality motor. (back to the original question, is 1300W PC maybe more torquey than 1800W Makita).

An induction motor uses an AC waveform in both the rotor and stator, so there are no magnets just copper windings. The polarity of the winding of the stator is always the same as that of the winding of the rotor directly opposite it. So we know that the opposite of poles attract, so a + + charge or - - charge would make the rotor and stator try and physically seperate themselves, causing the rotor to spin.

As the EMF of the windings can produce a greater magnetic force than a solid magnet induction motors tend to be more powerfull, but as there is more windings they are physically bigger and need more ventialtion to keep them cool.

Depending on how the motors are wound can also effect the power of the motor; if the rotor and stator are in series with each other there is more power and torque, as in a car starter motor.

Unfortunately if there is no physical load on the motor the speed will be very high and likely cause the motor to self destruct. That is why you should never conect a car starter motor to a power supply without first having some form of mechanical resistance on the motor shaft, cause it can blow up !!!

The other way is to have the rotor and stator wired in parallel with each other, like a table saw motor. This is less torquey but offers far more speed control.

I hope this descrition is understandable, if i knew how to draw pictures I could describe it better. :?

Matstro, if you have read this far and not got bored then I am looking forward to hearing about your exploits in returning the Porter Cable.
 
graham:

your induction motor theory seems top-notch, i agree with all of it.

But I`m not conviced that a router or power drill have induction motors.

http://www.engin.umich.edu/labs/csdl/ME ... index.html

this is well worth a look, it describes a motor which is AC but uses brushes i.e. the universal motor


in the strickly purests view this is`nt technically an induction motor (i.e. AC asynchronous machine like a car alternator [but run in reverse!]).

never mind, the point has been lost, a long time ago!

sorry to bore EVERYONE else
:D
 
Steven, you are right, I reckon all power drills and routers will have a brush motor, otherwise they would be quite big and chunky things.

Anyway, you are dead right, the point was lost long ago. I am also amazed that I could still dredge up so much about such a dull subject.

I think the conclusion was both the PC and Makita routers were good, the fence on the Makita was crap and the fine depth control on the PC needs a home made adaption.
 
OK, so I'll weight with my two pennorth....

First the Metabo ISN'T a Trend - they are BOTH Fellisati, an Italian make. In the same way as the Freud FT2000 (and the Atlas Copco/AEG FT2000) is a Casals in real life.

Confused? Well how about this - you're right, the 2000watt Festool is really built by Maffell, but has a different base, whilst Maffell buys in the motor from the Festool 1000watt router and fits ther own base (called an OF50e, and quite a nice small router).

For big routers I favour the deWalt, although my latest DW ain't as well made as the earlier Elu I still have. At least they use the same collets (as do the Freud/Atlas Copco/AEG/Casals and the Maffell/Festool). I've found that they have enough power for hand use - if you need any more then you really should consider a spindle moulder. But that's another story...
 

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