Union Graduate

[Bills Elm]

Hi all, this is my first post so hello!

I've searched about for an answer to this but with minimal results so i came here to try and get some advice.

I've just bought an old Union Graduate lathe with a "red name plate" and I want to put a speed control on it, but I've read that unless it's dual voltage, I either have to convert the motor or buy a new motor before I can put the inverter on it, now firstly, on the little plate down at the bottom it says 400/440v so from what i've read this signifies that it is not dual voltage "I think"!,

So my question is, does anyone know where to buy a new motor that will fit a graduate and what the serial number for it would be as i've found sites that sell motors but as to which one will fit the graduate I have no idea? or is it cheaper to get my original motor converted?
My next question is, is it a big job to convert it? would a spark be able to do it or would I need an electronics type person?

I really know nowt about electrics so please keep it simple if you reply! lol


many thanks

 

[richburrow]

You could contact
http://www.woodturninglathes.co.uk/
They sell everything you would need, not the cheapest route but you get 100% support from them.
I bought my recon graduate from them and they were very good.
Also when working on another graduate that had nothing to do with them they still helped me out with a wiring diagram and support over the phone.
Also this company are very good, they dont have what you are looking for on ebay at the moment but its a phone call you could make.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/newtonteslaelectricdrivesltd

 

[Bills Elm]

Yeah thanks for your reply, but as you say they aren't the cheapest in fact they are very expensive ive been on their site before, just wondered if anyone has any answers to my original questions thanks

 

[Naxie]

I can certainly recommend Newton Tesla, I purchased a kit from them last year for my Union Graduate there customer service was excellent. The chap I spoke to explained all the options available clearly and in "laymans" terms and the the supplied motor, inverter and controller arrived promptly and were of very good quality. It was easy to fit (even for me) and came with clear instructions. As mentioned they certainly are not the cheapest but in this instance I feel you certainly get what you pay for.

Hope that helps.

Ed

PS I have no affiliation to Newton Tesla, just thought it would help to share my experience.

 

[richburrow]

Totally agree with the above post, wiring wise fitting their system is a breeze. It is tricky to get in because the motor is heavy and the space is small, that's life.
There is no cheap solution to your problem that does not come with a world of hassle.

 

[barrywat]

Another vote for Newton Tesla, very helpful people, do a dedicated speed controller that fits in place of original stop start switch. Well worth the effort, really pleased with speed control. Just need to start making something worthwhile rather than shavings and stuff for the woodburner.

 

[Bills Elm]

Thanks guys for your help!!

So it looks like it's gonna have to be a new motor as well as the inverter, I was hoping I could have gotten away without the motor but if that's the best route then that's what it has to be.

I had a look at their inverters and motors and they do look like the dogs B's just have to save a few pennys more now for the motor lol

I'll let you know how I get on!

Cheers guys

 

[beech1948]

Can you let us know what the motor plate actually says.

From your email I can not tell if you have a single phase motor or a 3ph motor.

IF its 3 ph then all you need is an inverter to go from 240 to 440 and provide the speed control.

Your motor will have a plate attached which will detail the spec of the motor.

Al

 

[Bills Elm]

Can you let us know what the motor plate actually says.

From your email I can not tell if you have a single phase motor or a 3ph motor.

IF its 3 ph then all you need is an inverter to go from 240 to 440 and provide the speed control.

Your motor will have a plate attached which will detail the spec of the motor.

Al

Ok Al

I've had to read it off the motor with a mirror as i cant really see in properly but I think what it says is

Brooks Morton
Rating = Cont
Phase = 3
Volts = 400/440

Now from what I've read on the Newton-Tesla site, because it's not a dual voltage motor, I can't just connect up an inverter, as the motor would have to be changed to dual voltage first??

 

[beech1948]

Brooks Morton
Rating = Cont
Phase = 3
Volts = 400/440

What I think is being advised by the suppliers mentioned is that you convert to a 240v 3 ph motor and run from the 240 1ph mains via an inverter.

An alternate is to use a 1ph 240v to 3 ph 415v inverter like this

[urlhttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-HP-240V-to-415V-3-PHASE-CONVERTER-INVERTER-LATHE-MILLING-MACHINE-DRILL-PUMP-/150956761290?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item2325b960ca][/url]

A second alternative is to use a Rotary Phase Converter. You could buy one or make one. Plans to make one are available on the internet and they are fairly simple to make. Lots of reading involved.

The simplest approach would be the inverter above to go from 240v to 415v.

You would need to check the horsepower of your motor ( probably also on the motore plate)and ensure that the VFD inverter will handle it. The supplier can help you there.

VFDs or Inverters are not complex to set up but need a methodical approach and a thorough read of the manual.

Al

 

[beech1948]

Also your motor is rated for continuous use and that is worth having.

Many of the Chinese/Taiwanese etc motors today are not rated for continuous use.

Al

 

[beech1948]

Also look at

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DIGITAL-3-PHA ... 2325b9717e

Al

 

[dickm]

Are you sure it's not dual voltage? If the motor windings come out to a box on the outside of the motor, have a look inside and refer to Bob Minchin (9fingers) guide to motors at the top of the forum. That will tell you whether you can just shift the links within the box from ?star? to ?delta? (can never remember which, but pretty sure it's that way). If you can, that will then allow the motor to run off 240v.
The rating plate would not necessarily tell you this, as obviously the manufacturers couldn't assume that users wouldn't just try to use it on the "wrong" voltage without delving inside.

 

[Bills Elm]

Are you sure it's not dual voltage? If the motor windings come out to a box on the outside of the motor, have a look inside and refer to Bob Minchin (9fingers) guide to motors at the top of the forum. That will tell you whether you can just shift the links within the box from ?star? to ?delta? (can never remember which, but pretty sure it's that way). If you can, that will then allow the motor to run off 240v.
The rating plate would not necessarily tell you this, as obviously the manufacturers couldn't assume that users wouldn't just try to use it on the "wrong" voltage without delving inside.

Yeah thanks for that **** I found "guide to motors" but the links seem to be dead??

 

[Bills Elm]

I managed to get the link. Wow! now thats a lot of info and it sort of went straight over my head, I understood some of it but most of it was all greek to me lol.

I know it says on the forum rules about pics being posted at the start but I didn't know that I would need to post them so I hope it's ok for me to post some tomorrow of what's inside the lathe in the hope that someone can shed some light on whether or not i need to change the motor.

 

[beech1948]

Bill,
Strictly speaking if you have a 400-440v 3ph motor you DO NOT have to change your motor. You need to insert a 240v 1ph input VFD with 415v 3ph output between your motor and the 240v mains.

Strictly speaking 400v-440v 3 ph electrics are usually used in an industrial setting and some people can be unecessarily scared of them. Your house supply is 1ph but these will be taken off a 3ph supply in your street.

3ph can also be provided in a 240v 3ph format and that is what most of the suppliers you are talking to offer so they want you to change the motor to a lower voltage andn use the VFD for speed control.

So its a clear choice.

1) Stay with 415v 3ph at the existing motor and use a 1ph to 3ph 415v inverter (VFD). Probably your cheapest choice at about £315 plus some thick cable.

2) Move to 240v 3ph plus a VFD plus a remote start switch from a Union graduate supplier for maybe £378/400 plus thicker cables

The only reason to stay with 3ph is the gain in speed control with the VFD/inverter.

You may be able to regain some money from your old motor if a UG owner wants an original motor.

IF you are not confident that you can fix the motor/VFD/Cables in place then get an electrician to do it for you.

Since there seems to be so little to consider in the prices you may as well go for the UG 240v motor supplier+VFD as it is a known quantity and is proven.

Questions you need to ask/ consider.
1) Will the 240v 3ph give me the power I need
2) Will the 400-440v control box still work or will I need to find a replacement. If a replacement then with what to what spec.
3) If the on/off switches are seperate will I need new or will they still work. If replacement then to what spec.
4) Can I fit this new motor and VFD into the machine or hang the VFD outside it. Can I fit the remote OK
5) What thickness/weight of cable will I need to use and how much
6) How many amps will the new arrangement need and can my electricity supply cope with that. What new circuits/plug types will I need if any. Will I need a 16 or 20 amp slow fused circuit.
7) Can I do this myself or will I need help.

Hope this list helps and does not hinder.

My choice would be to use the existing motor and a 240v 1ph to 415v 3ph inverter but thats just me.

Al

 

[Bills Elm]

Ok here's some photos of whats inside the lathe and a link to the inverter I was thinking of fitting if it can be done with this motor sorry about the pics I had to take them with my phone.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330835584254? ... 1423.l2649

 

[Bills Elm]

Bill,
Strictly speaking if you have a 400-440v 3ph motor you DO NOT have to change your motor. You need to insert a 240v 1ph input VFD with 415v 3ph output between your motor and the 240v mains.

Strictly speaking 400v-440v 3 ph electrics are usually used in an industrial setting and some people can be unecessarily scared of them. Your house supply is 1ph but these will be taken off a 3ph supply in your street.

3ph can also be provided in a 240v 3ph format and that is what most of the suppliers you are talking to offer so they want you to change the motor to a lower voltage andn use the VFD for speed control.

So its a clear choice.

1) Stay with 415v 3ph at the existing motor and use a 1ph to 3ph 415v inverter (VFD). Probably your cheapest choice at about £315 plus some thick cable.

2) Move to 240v 3ph plus a VFD plus a remote start switch from a Union graduate supplier for maybe £378/400 plus thicker cables

The only reason to stay with 3ph is the gain in speed control with the VFD/inverter.

You may be able to regain some money from your old motor if a UG owner wants an original motor.

IF you are not confident that you can fix the motor/VFD/Cables in place then get an electrician to do it for you.

Since there seems to be so little to consider in the prices you may as well go for the UG 240v motor supplier+VFD as it is a known quantity and is proven.

Questions you need to ask/ consider.
1) Will the 240v 3ph give me the power I need
2) Will the 400-440v control box still work or will I need to find a replacement. If a replacement then with what to what spec.
3) If the on/off switches are seperate will I need new or will they still work. If replacement then to what spec.
4) Can I fit this new motor and VFD into the machine or hang the VFD outside it. Can I fit the remote OK
5) What thickness/weight of cable will I need to use and how much
6) How many amps will the new arrangement need and can my electricity supply cope with that. What new circuits/plug types will I need if any. Will I need a 16 or 20 amp slow fused circuit.
7) Can I do this myself or will I need help.

Hope this list helps and does not hinder.

My choice would be to use the existing motor and a 240v 1ph to 415v 3ph inverter but thats just me.

Al

Al many thanks for that!

would I be able to use this then. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330835584254? ... 1423.l2649

If I go with the choice of keeping my origial motor? Or will I, (as the ad says) have to send it off to get adjusted? Please bear with me on this as I really don't have much of a clue about electrics!

Or would a good electrition be able to do it for me using the inverter above from ebay without me having to send the motor off?

I hope that makes sense.

 

[beech1948]

Al many thanks for that!

would I be able to use this then. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330835584254? ... 1423.l2649

If I go with the choice of keeping my origial motor? Or will I, (as the ad says) have to send it off to get adjusted? Please bear with me on this as I really don't have much of a clue about electrics!

Or would a good electrition be able to do it for me using the inverter above from ebay without me having to send the motor off?

I hope that makes sense.[/quote]

Bill,

I would proceed with the following steps. I am also recognising that you " I really don't have much of a clue about electrics".

The ebay reference you gave might or might not work. Its only a 240v 1ph input to 240v 3ph output. You indicated that your old motor was 400-440v 3ph. So if your old motor is 3ph 400-440v then it will NOT work with this inverter.
I sent you a link to a 415v 3ph inverter from single phase.
Step
1) Remove your old motor from the UG
2) Clean the motor info plate with acetone ( otherwise known as nail varnish remover) and see what it says. Tell us here exactly what it says. It should state phasing and voltage and possibly amps. If non of this info is available then the best approach is to buy a new motor which will be a 240v 3ph one.
3) remove the top of the box which is the motor control box and see what circuit diagram is printed somewhere inside that box. The box may be on the motor or maybe elsewhere on the machine. Tell us what you see and show us the diagram.

The purpose of these steps is to ascertain exactly what you have as an existing motor. The voltage circuit diagram will tell us if you already have a dual voltage motor or if it is only a 400-440v motor.

You can not mix 400-440V 3PH WITH 240v 3ph. If you did you might die.

I don't understand what sending the motor off to have adjusted will achieve. There are few adjustments on motors, which are simple things, they are either built in a particular way and at a specific voltage/amps/phasing.

Once we have the information then someone can help.

Before you get an electrician you will need this info for them to decide if they can do the job.

I am guessing that you are keen to keep costs down. However, you need to have chosen your way forward before checking on ebay. The inverter you showed from ebay will ONLY work with a 240v 3ph motor. Hence the need to finalise what you actually have as your original motor.

Good luck

Al

 

[beech1948]

Ok here's some photos of whats inside the lathe and a link to the inverter I was thinking of fitting if it can be done with this motor sorry about the pics I had to take them with my phone.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/330835584254? ... 1423.l2649

Bill,

Thanks for the pictures.

picture 4 and 5 from the top shows what i would call the voltage control box. Is there a diagram in the lid. If yes, what does it say.

Al