Toothed blades for bevel-down planes

[Paul Chapman]

At the West Dean Hand Tool Event, I was impressed by the demonstraton by Deneb of the Lie Nielsen Toolworks of the use of a toothed blade when preparing rough, sawn stock to size. Deneb was using a toothed blade in a Lie Nielsen bevel up plane and it did not seem as though any such blades were available for bevel-down planes - disappointing because all my planes are bevel down

However, by chance I found that bevel-down toothed blades are available \/ They are made by Kunz and can be ordered through Dick in Germany http://www.dick.biz/

I ordered one on Saturday and it arrived yesterday. Here it is

It seems quite nicely made. One slight problem with bevel down toothed blades is that shavings can get trapped between the blade and the cap iron but I found that this can be easily overcome by setting the cap iron a long way back from the edge (you might need to move the frog back a bit in order to be able to withdraw the blade sufficiently when adjusting the blade). I found it works OK like this

When doing rough work like this the cap iron serves no purpose other than to enable the blade to be adjusted, so the planing will not suffer.

I bought the blade to use primarily in my old Record #07 which I use for a lot of stock preparation - usually with a heavily cambered blade. It fits nicely in the plane

I tried the blade on a piece of rough oak which was very subject to tear-out. I found the blade works best used at 45 degrees across the grain

The results are superb. Good stock removal and absolutely no tear-out 8)

The type of shavings you get are long and stringy - as you would expect from the toothed blade

The blade leaves a cross-hatched pattern on the wood which is then easily removed with the jointer plane with conventionally honed blade.

The whole point of these blades is that if, like me, you have no machinery and do all your stock preparation by hand, the normal method of reducing the wood to a presentable state is to use a heavily cambered blade. However, this can cause serious tear-out. It's better to use the heavily cambered blade to knock off the really high spots, then move on to the toothed blade which will give slightly less deep cuts but a tear-free finish, then move on to a conventional blade to finish.

The bottom line is that I'm delighted with the blade and envisage using it a lot.

I ordered one for Karl as well - be interesting to see what he thinks of it :-k

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

I tried the blade on a piece of rough oak which was very subject to tear-out. I found the blade works best used at 45 degrees across the grain

Are you doing a skew cut (plane at 45 degrees, moved along the workpiece), or an angled cut (plane at 45 degrees moved in its own length) ?

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

an angled cut (plane at 45 degrees moved in its own length) ?

Yes, that one

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

an angled cut (plane at 45 degrees moved in its own length) ?

Yes, that one

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Surely in that case the blade may as well be in a smaller plane (e.g. #4 1/2) - the length of the #7 is providing no benefit, and the mass is a disadvantage.


BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

Surely in that case the blade may as well be in a smaller plane (e.g. #4 1/2) - the length of the #7 is providing no benefit, and the mass is a disadvantage.

Possibly - but I use the #7 a lot. It's one of my favourite size planes. There are three planes I use with heavily cambered blades for stock preparation

That's a #7, a #5.5 and my Frampton Special (about a #3). Invariably I end up using the #7 because it works so well and, with it's longer length, it levels out the wood nicely as well as getting rid of the crud.

In fact for lots of jobs I find the #7 a great plane - but it comes down to personal preference and how you work IMHO. If I had to have only one plane it would be a #7...........

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Paul Chapman wrote:

If I had to have only one plane it would be a #7...........

Paul - ... you've been reading that Alan Peter's book again :lol: - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

Paul - ... you've been reading that Alan Peter's book again :lol:

Well, if it's good enough for him.......... 8) Only wish I could produce stuff like he does.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[bugbear]

Surely in that case the blade may as well be in a smaller plane (e.g. #4 1/2) - the length of the #7 is providing no benefit, and the mass is a disadvantage.

Possibly - but I use the #7 a lot. It's one of my favourite size planes. There are three planes I use with heavily cambered blades for stock preparation

I have no doubt; but in the "new circumstances" of the toothed blade, working at 45 degrees, it seem (perhaps newly) less optimal.

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

Surely in that case the blade may as well be in a smaller plane (e.g. #4 1/2) - the length of the #7 is providing no benefit, and the mass is a disadvantage.

Possibly - but I use the #7 a lot. It's one of my favourite size planes. There are three planes I use with heavily cambered blades for stock preparation

I have no doubt; but in the "new circumstances" of the toothed blade, working at 45 degrees, it seem (perhaps newly) less optimal.

BugBear

This question of which is the "best" plane size in any given situation is a fascinating one - and one to which I feel there is no answer. It seems to me that people either like big ones or they like small ones. OK, there is all the theory, but which one I pick up is the one that works best for me :wink:

It was interesting that at West Dean, Deneb also seemed to favour big planes - and he had the whole of the LN arsenal to choose from. Here he is planing a relatively small piece of Mahogany with his #8 after having gone over it with the toothed blade

Several people asked him about the plane and queried whether it was too large, but Deneb was having none of it - the #8 for him was King, as the #7 is for me.

Each to their own, as they say :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[dunbarhamlin]

Several people asked [Deneb] about the plane and queried whether it was too large, but Deneb was having none of it - the #8 for him was King, as the #7 is for me.

All get used, but I do agree about the #7
Now if only Messrs Hudson and Reid...
(no, maybe not - let them get the bullnose out the door and then get on with the block plane)
Cheers
Steve

 

[Paul Chapman]

and then get on with the block plane

Yes, it is a cracker, isn't it - I always told Mike I would buy the first one but it sounds like you might beat me to it :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[dunbarhamlin]

S'Okay - I'm not selfish, I'll be quite happy with number two - until then will just have to slum it with an A2 iron from the Maine man.

 

[newt]

Thanks Paul must order one.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Thanks Paul must order one.

Hi Pete,

When honing the blade, so as to avoid wearing down the grooves on the flat side of the blade, I did your trick of wiping the edge through a piece of softwood to get rid of the burr. Worked really well.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

I ordered one for Karl as well - be interesting to see what he thinks of it :-k

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Hi Paul

I've had a chance to give the blade a quick hone and pop it in the Philly Jack (for others benefit, Paul ordered me the 2" blade). It fitted in nicely - I was a little worried about whether the wedge might pop through the mouth, as the plane takes a 3mm blade as standard.

Anyway, after a little tap here, a little retraction there, a little tap here.....

Had a play on another piece of Oak (like for like comparison).

I set a deeper shaving than you - not sure what depth of cut is "normal", but I figured that the deeper I could go without tearout, the better. Check out my shavings

Again, planing at 45 degree to the board. I did also try skewing the cut at 45 degrees (ie the planing track is 90 deg to the edge). Made it a little easier to push the plane, although it was perfectly acceptable (with a firm grip) before. The downside of this 90 deg cutting action is the ease with which you can make significant hollows in the length of the board - been there before

All in all, well impressed. I now have 3 blades for the Philly Jack - a cambered scrub type blade, the toothed blade and a straight blade. This latest addition has just increased the versatility of this plane.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Paul Chapman]

I set a deeper shaving than you - not sure what depth of cut is "normal", but I figured that the deeper I could go without tearout, the better.

Hi Karl,

Glad you like it I was being a bit tentative before and have since tried thicker shavings and, as you found, the blade copes well.

Reckon we could start a trend in these blades 8) :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

Reckon we could start a trend in these blades 8) :lol:

Nah, there's too many Normites on here !!!!!

(says he with a Wadkin planer, Makita thicknesser, small Kity planer thicknesser and a nutool planer............but much prefers to use his hand planes).

Cheers

Karl

 

[pam niedermayer]

I'd think it much easier and cheaper to pick up an old woodie with toothing blade, especially in the UK. That's what I did 7 or 8 years ago. I also bought a toothing blade for the LN LAJ, which also works very nicely. The burr swiping trick isn't new at all.

Pam

 

[bugbear]

I'd think it much easier and cheaper to pick up an old woodie with toothing blade, especially in the UK.

The only planes I've ever seen in the UK with toothing blades are toothing planes (!).

These are shaped like coffin bodied smoothers, and have a blade bedded at around 85 degrees (near vertical).

Not very useful for the task being discussed - although I suppose you could just scavenge the blade.

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

The only planes I've ever seen in the UK with toothing blades are toothing planes (!).

There seem to be two different and quite distinct uses for toothed blades. The common one (as far as I can ascertain from the research I've done) is in preparing groundwork for veneering. I've also seen references to their use by, for example, makers of musical instruments where they are working in thin, exotic timbers subject to tear-out.

What we saw at West Dean was their use in stock preparation, where you would use the blade in situations where a scrub-type or heavily cambered blade would normally be used - and the big advantage of the toothed blade is the lack of tear-out.

I had certainly not seen them used for this purpose in the past and haven't seen any references to this type of use in published material. Maybe that's why there seems to be a scarcity of bevel-down toothed blades - they simply weren't commonly used in the past for stock removal work.

Cheers :wink:

Paul