Tenon Saw Advice

[Petey83]

So after recovering from "chiselgate" I am looking into buying a tenon saw. I currently have the 2 Veritas carcass saws (rip and cross) but the work bench i am planning will have through tenons of a shade over 4 inch's so the smaller Veritas saws won't have the capacity to cut that. I also have some other project in mind for later this year that I don't want to use Dominos for.

So started looking at larger Tenon saw's that can deal with a 4 inch deep cut. The list consists of the Veritas large Tenon, Lie Nielsn Tenon, a 14" Pax Tenon all in rip configuration or the uber expensive Bad Axe "jack" Tenon saw that has a hybrid tooth pattern that apparently allows effective rip and cross cutting.

before anyone says it - i have not looked second hand as do not know enough about sharpening and tuning a saw at this stage - it's on the list to learn along with re-grinding tools (I'll make a separate post about this learning curve at some point)

Whilst I am not affraid to spend money if i am genuinely getting a better product but i don't want to do it for the sake of. The Bad Axe appeals if it really can do rip and cross cutting as I will need something to trip the ends of the bench top and was planning on using my track saw to do this by cutting from both sides....

 

[lurker]

Buy British!

https://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/

 

[ED65]

Harken unto me brother! Free yourself from the tyranny, don't get a tenon saw at all!

Sorry I'll settle down now. Although undeniably beautiful bits of kit that'll get the job done there are alternatives if you'd prefer not to spend a lot on a tenon saw.

We don't need no stinkin' backsaws!

Or alternatively go with Tage Frid's advice and set yourself up with a frame saw/box saw, with a blade sharpened for rip. The tests he showed his students (reproduced in his first book I think) are very persuasive that this is a far more efficient way to go, and of course the same saw can then be used for a host of other jobs that a backsaw, no matter which way it was sharpened, would be wholly unsuited to.

There's also the option of going the Japanese route. Saws of that type work well enough that not a few who have tried them haven't gone back to European saws.

 

[AJB Temple]

I can't advise what to buy, but I can suggest what not to buy.

I recently purchased one of the large Veritas back saws (I also have carcass and dovetail). I am not sure I would recommend it though, depending on what you are doing. I find that the saw "steers" very easily at times, making it quite difficult to get a perfectly straight cut in wide material. I mostly work in oak. The blade is very thin, and I think this might be part of the problem. It may be me (though I am very used to hand saws) and may just need some getting used to. However, if I were buying again, based on experience and reviews (mostly on US websites), I would buy the Lie Nielson. Bad Axe is firmly into custom territory price wise and I would need to use a saw a **** of a lot to justify that price.

 

[Petey83]

I can't advise what to buy, but I can suggest what not to buy.

I recently purchased one of the large Veritas back saws (I also have carcass and dovetail). I am not sure I would recommend it though, depending on what you are doing. I find that the saw "steers" very easily at times, making it quite difficult to get a perfectly straight cut in wide material. I mostly work in oak. The blade is very thin, and I think this might be part of the problem. It may be me (though I am very used to hand saws) and may just need some getting used to. However, if I were buying again, based on experience and reviews (mostly on US websites), I would buy the Lie Nielson. Bad Axe is firmly into custom territory price wise and I would need to use a saw a **** of a lot to justify that price.

yea the Bad Axe is about £60 more expensive - my only rationale for it in the first place was the hybrid tooth pattern that allow rip and cross cutting - effectively giving me two saws that would cope on the bigger jobs i have in mind that the Veritas carcass saws are to small for

 

[bugbear]

Many older texts shows large tenons being cut with backless saws.

I wouldn't buy an expensive and unusual back saw just to cut large
tenons - either use a hand saw (a 12 TPI hand saw is rather handy), or cut
the tenon roughly with whatever coarse TPI hand saw you have, and use a router plane to
finalise up the dimension and finish quality.

BugBear

 

[Peter Sefton]

Many older texts shows large tenons being cut with backless saws.

I wouldn't buy an expensive and unusual back saw just to cut large
tenons - either use a hand saw (a 12 TPI hand saw is rather handy)

BugBear

I agree with BB, or the Pax 1776 RIP cut are very good for x cutting too, no need to buy from overseas.

Cheers Peter

 

[deema]

A 4" rip tenon saw is not often required, and as already highlighted there are other ways of cutting them for a few off required for a bench. You can also cut them in your Spindle moulder with a tenon block (Whitehill) which would be a far more useful addition IMO.

Just to second buy British, either Pax or alternatively Skelton saws, he makes lovely hand made saws and you can have what ever you want / need.

http://skeltonsaws.co.uk

 

[Petey83]

A 4" rip tenon saw is not often required, and as already highlighted there are other ways of cutting them for a few off required for a bench. You can also cut them in your Spindle moulder with a tenon block (Whitehill) which would be a far more useful addition IMO.

Just to second buy British, either Pax or alternatively Skelton saws, he makes lovely hand made saws and you can have what ever you want / need.

http://skeltonsaws.co.uk

would move a skelton saw but thats a whole different planet of expense.

I do not have a spindle molder but do have a router table which i contemplated using but I want to do this project with hand tools only - since i have started fitting out my workshop I have found i actually enjoy hand tool woodwork more than power tool work.

Pax saws is certainly ion the list - just trying to get an idea of where cash would be best spent i suppose

 

[jlawford]

I have the Veritas tenon saw and the quality is not in question, however I've wondered if I strictly need to have purchased it. My first 'proper' saw was the Veritas dovetail saw, 14 TPI rip and I've found I can do most things with it, the smaller size making it easy to control. If I was cutting massive tenons regularly then the larger saw is ideal, but I'd suggest your current carcass saws would work fine.

For the tenon cheeks that are deeper than the saw blade allows, you can cut corner to corner then use a handsaw to finish off, or just use a handsaw for the lot.

Router plane to fit to size and clean up works fantastically.

 

[AJB Temple]

I would add that when oak framing (so big joints) if I can't cut with a circular saw I use a hard point hand saw a lot of the time. These are about £10 each and I just buy two or three at a time and bin them when they get blunt or slow. I also use Japanese saws a lot as I like the tensioned back pull action as frequently with big stuff you can't orientate the work into a comfortable position.

 

[Petey83]

I would add that when oak framing (so big joints) if I can't cut with a circular saw I use a hard point hand saw a lot of the time. These are about £10 each and I just buy two or three at a time and bin them when they get blunt or slow. I also use Japanese saws a lot as I like the tensioned back pull action as frequently with big stuff you can't orientate the work into a comfortable position.

I have a Japanese dovetail saw that I bought with my David Barron dove tail guide and whilst I really like it with the guide I feel a bit awkward with the grip when cutting free hand, that said I have not worked on anything particularly big thus far.

the big projects I want to do this summer are my work bench and then a nice sturdy rustic garden table - the furniture for inside the house will be smaller and I will be using dominos for the reclaimed timber stuff.

 

[AJB Temple]

I find Japanese saws great in some applications. For example when I am trimming off pegs in a building (usually I am on steps or a tower) then this is what I use. I also use it when I am making awkward or inaccessible cuts. I quickly got used to the straight handle and with the blade under tension and a thin kerf I find I can get very accurate cuts. Quick too. I don't like them for everything though - for significant rip saw work I would choose a different tool. It's all just personal preference.

 

[dynax]

i am also looking at one as a future purchase, i have seen this one that looks pretty good, https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/hand-to ... EN5974600K

 

[D_W]

Hand saw, as has been suggested above. Forget backsaws for work that large.

The first back saw that I made was a high back 16" long saw. It's difficult to find a use for it, and when I made a bench 2 years ago, I don't think I used it. It's heavy and digs in too aggressively on small work, and on large work, a hand saw is better.

 

[AndyT]

Many older texts shows large tenons being cut with backless saws.


BugBear

Quite so!

Make sure you buy the required clothing as well, and if you shave, stop.

 

[Hornbeam]

I think hand tools are often personal preference so what feels nice for one person may not work for someone else.
I would see if you can try first.
Agree with the buy British.
Dont think I could ever manage the beard and hairstyle

 

[lurcher]

split them with a chisel and square up with a shoulder plane or router plane

 

[Petey83]

I actually have a period beard to suit so just need the saw now.

Still contemplating what saw to buy (if any) for the workbench but I have made a decision about ordering some other saws to replace my Veritas carcass saws and Compliment my Japanese dovetails saw........ had a great chat with Shane at Skelton this afternoon..... 9 month waiting list that I will be joining for 3 saws tomorrow....

 

[Phil Pascoe]

What are you going to buy when you tire of them?