Sheffield saw and plane making

[Jacob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiW5E8v ... e=youtu.be

For me the most interesting bit was the saw filing by hand; fast and regular. Presumably without stopping from one end to the other

 

[Fromey]

Amazing what monotonous practice will do. The sign of a true artist.

 

[Blevins]

Yes that saw filing is something to behold. Funnily enough I've just popped in to Flinn's on the way back from work to get some saw screws. Great to have a UK and Sheffield company continuing with this fine tradition

 

[condeesteso]

Brilliant film, nice to see Sheffield in the spotlights. Notice the bloke sanding the handles - his modified overalls!

 

[deema]

Having spent all my working life in manufacturing, my views and purely my opinion and may cause offence to some for which I apologise.
I am deeply saddened seeing such a manufacturing facility. It looks like something I might have seen at the start of the 1900's rather than something I would recognise as a modern manufacturing facility. That's not to say that modern equals doing away with hand crafted excellence, in fact quite the contrary. A well laid out factory with properly organised work flow and clean conditions not only helps create an efficient process but also will help to attract young blood into a business, vital if it's to survive.

I've unfortunately seen far too many companies in the state of the one shown and almost all are now gone. Having turned around, re-organised, invested where appropriate and preserved the heart and sole of what makes a company loved by its customers which has included so called dirty process such as a foundered, forge, machining, stamping bending processes, I'm deeply depressed to see such a poorly managed facility. For the sake of the last British saw manufacturer, I plea for the company to look at how modern manufacturing is done and survive for many generations to come.

 

[JonnyW]

This is such a good video Jacob. And like you, I was truly amazed by the saw shapening.

I have been trying my hand at saw sharpening. All I can say is that I am truly skilled at ruining a lovely blunt saw.

Jonny

 

[rkboston]

Looks neat. Automation can be very expensive, especially for low volume producers like them.
BTW my Pax panel saw while nice was nowhere near sharp out of the box.

 

[Sam R]

Having spent all my working life in manufacturing, my views and purely my opinion and may cause offence to some for which I apologise.
I am deeply saddened seeing such a manufacturing facility. It looks like something I might have seen at the start of the 1900's rather than something I would recognise as a modern manufacturing facility. .

The foundry work is outsourced to local foundries. The saw making happens on Mowbray St in Sheffield. Search for the Lie Nielsen video on You Tube about founding of their planes - again outsourced to local foundry co - makes the Sheffield operations look less Dickensian in comparison.

Interesting perspective, however, I tend to agree. Not many youths are going to see that and think "that's for me!" However, in this case it is not Thos. Flinn's/Clifton doing.

 

[Biliphuster]

Having spent all my working life in manufacturing, my views and purely my opinion and may cause offence to some for which I apologise.
I am deeply saddened seeing such a manufacturing facility. It looks like something I might have seen at the start of the 1900's rather than something I would recognise as a modern manufacturing facility. That's not to say that modern equals doing away with hand crafted excellence, in fact quite the contrary. A well laid out factory with properly organised work flow and clean conditions not only helps create an efficient process but also will help to attract young blood into a business, vital if it's to survive.

I've unfortunately seen far too many companies in the state of the one shown and almost all are now gone. Having turned around, re-organised, invested where appropriate and preserved the heart and sole of what makes a company loved by its customers which has included so called dirty process such as a foundered, forge, machining, stamping bending processes, I'm deeply depressed to see such a poorly managed facility. For the sake of the last British saw manufacturer, I plea for the company to look at how modern manufacturing is done and survive for many generations to come.

My question comes from a position of complete ignorance, so please don't think I am implying anything, but how could you make tools differently (better or modern) without automating the process? I could barely tell how the factory was laid out, let alone workflow from the arty farty video. I know nothing about modern manufacturing other than drive to efficiency and automation, reduce parts counts, just in time inventory etc.

Perhaps Klaus or Pedder could weigh in with their experience as well.

 

[D_W]

If the modern alternative is something like the fastcap video with kaizen this and lean that, no thanks.

I expect a saw from such a setup to be lifeless, floppy, be made by people with no skill and cost $20.

The setup and video they showed has life, there is humanity in it. Bean counters and process improvers can only figure out how to make the product half as good for a quarter of the cost.

No thanks.

 

[Jacob]

Having spent all my working life in manufacturing, my views and purely my opinion and may cause offence to some for which I apologise.
I am deeply saddened seeing such a manufacturing facility. It looks like something I might have seen at the start of the 1900's rather than something I would recognise as a modern manufacturing facility. That's not to say that modern equals doing away with hand crafted excellence, in fact quite the contrary. A well laid out factory with properly organised work flow and clean conditions not only helps create an efficient process but also will help to attract young blood into a business, vital if it's to survive.

I've unfortunately seen far too many companies in the state of the one shown and almost all are now gone. Having turned around, re-organised, invested where appropriate and preserved the heart and sole of what makes a company loved by its customers which has included so called dirty process such as a foundered, forge, machining, stamping bending processes, I'm deeply depressed to see such a poorly managed facility. For the sake of the last British saw manufacturer, I plea for the company to look at how modern manufacturing is done and survive for many generations to come.

There is only a tiny market for these retro tools so perhaps 3rd world methods are inevitable.

Apparently steel production in Sheffield is bigger than it ever was but is highly modernised and highly technical
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sheffield
You wouldn't know this if you visited the place, but the old industry is visibly there in the form of museums and old streets - now posh restaurants where there once were grind-wheels.

 

[bugbear]

Amazing what monotonous practice will do. The sign of a true artist.

I learnt a fair bit of technique from the Tom Law DVD on saw sharpening (he was a saw doctor, not a maker). One thing I didn't feel obliged to emulate was his speed.

I don't think anybody sharpening saws for themselves, even full time carpenters, "back in the day" would ever have got enough practise to be as good as someone who just files 8 hour a day.

it's fun to watch though.

Does anyone - AndyT - know how frequently saws were sharpened in the era of hand work?

I recall in one autobiography about a large workshop, saws being sent to the saw doctor at the end of the Friday, for delivery ready to use on Monday. The saw doctors obviously worked weekends. But it wasn't clear wether all the saws were sent out every week, or just whichever ones were deemed blunt, so we can't infer a frequency from this.

BugBear

 

[G S Haydon]

I can see where you're coming from deema but I'm not sure Clifton should head down the total automation route. For something made in the spirit of a Bailey #4 or a Marples Splitproof chisel then sure. But to maintain interest Clifton need to cultivate interest in the processes they uses, the skills involved and the reasons behind the choices. They are off to a great start and more videos like this would be great. Perhaps some short clips on why they do something.

 

[Jacob]

.... One thing I didn't feel obliged to emulate was his speed......

Actually the speed is the thing most worth emulating - not just to save time but more to get a regular and unbroken rhythm from a fixed stance and hold on the file. Once you've cracked it this will produce a regular sharpening. In fact you have to do this with finer teeth as you can't see them - it's done by feel and repetition. Felt tip helps - you can see where you've been at least.

PS a bit like chopping veg - precise thin slices of garlic at high speed once you've got the idea.

 

[D_W]

.... One thing I didn't feel obliged to emulate was his speed......

Actually the speed is the thing most worth emulating - not just to save time but more to get a regular and unbroken rhythm from a fixed stance and hold on the file.

Exactly. Rhythm and repetition.

 

[AndyT]

I don't think anybody sharpening saws for themselves, even full time carpenters, "back in the day" would ever have got enough practise to be as good as someone who just files 8 hour a day.

it's fun to watch though.

Does anyone - AndyT - know how frequently saws were sharpened in the era of hand work?

I recall in one autobiography about a large workshop, saws being sent to the saw doctor at the end of the Friday, for delivery ready to use on Monday. The saw doctors obviously worked weekends. But it wasn't clear wether all the saws were sent out every week, or just whichever ones were deemed blunt, so we can't infer a frequency from this.

BugBear

I think I have seen similar statements from those who sharpened their own, having a weekly session. Sorry, but I don't have anything else substantical to add, really, except to comment that this is the sort of 'obvious' information that can so easily be thought not worth writing down.

It's logical to assume that a full-time filer would be quicker than a saw-user, especially if he was working on piece work, in Yorkshire, as the original filers would have been.

There's nothing better than piece work and hunger to make a craftsman achieve amazingly high levels of speed and eliminate all superfluous movements, as shown in various archive films of production craftsmen at work.

 

[D_W]

I'll bet most craftsmen could sharpen their own saws in a matter of a couple of minutes, and I would suspect that it was done more often than it needed to be and with less filing than would be done by a filing machine. As in, touching up a rip saw after every couple of projects, or perhaps every project.

i doubt files were thrown away as quickly as they are now, because they were seriously expensive at the turn of the century, and probably even more so when they were hand cut.

Things may have been different in london or sheffield or wherever most english furniture was made where a tradesman would've been available locally to sharpen quickly and inexpensively. I can imagine that here in the states, a lot of the people making things in towns with less population and more distance may have taken more initiative in sharpening their own saws as a matter of necessity.

Don't know for sure, though. I like to touch up my rip saws more rather than less, and with less metal removal each time rather than more, so as to not have to joint tooth lines very often and to always have a crisp saw.

 

[blackrodd]

In the sawshop where I worked in during my apprenticeship, the handsaws and tenon saws were usually from the diyers, Farmers etc, and consquently, after they had had a several goes at sharpen and set, tended to be really bad,
"cow and calves" was the first problem, big tooth, and then small tooth,all down the saw blade length.
A lot of people get this problem.
They should have been "topped" with a flat file, in a wooden holder,until every tooth was "topped.
Then filed until the flat was gone, keeping you're eye on the shape and tooth size. and then set.
The carpenters would "touch up"his saw when the tooth started to shine, couple of times a week, and was usually
expected to "top" sharpen and set his saw in around 1/2 hour, maybe once a week, or so.
They all had a saw "horse", usually 3x2 frame sides and a vee cut out the top each side to allow 2 pieces of 3x1, tapered
edgeways so as to wedge firmly down between the vee's with the handsaw nicely sandwiched between, low down for topping and filing and raised for the set.
Here's a link to a typical sharpening saw horse, as used here in Sunny Devon, Which happens to lead to an excellent Paul Sellers vid on Sharpening, which, after a quick skim through, is very similar to how I was taught!
Following this sharpening vid will help you keep up with Graham Hayden when he speeds up in his excellent vids!
Regards Rodders

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=hand+ ... laZwhXM%3A

 

[G S Haydon]

:lol: 8)

 

[bugbear]

In the sawshop where I worked in during my apprenticeship, the handsaws and tenon saws were usually from the diyers, Farmers etc, and consquently, after they had had a several goes at sharpen and set, tended to be really bad,
"cow and calves" was the first problem, big tooth, and then small tooth,all down the saw blade length.
A lot of people get this problem.
They should have been "topped" with a flat file, in a wooden holder,until every tooth was "topped.
Then filed until the flat was gone, keeping you're eye on the shape and tooth size. and then set.
The carpenters would "touch up"his saw when the tooth started to shine, couple of times a week, and was usually
expected to "top" sharpen and set his saw in around 1/2 hour, maybe once a week, or so.
They all had a saw "horse", usually 3x2 frame sides and a vee cut out the top each side to allow 2 pieces of 3x1, tapered
edgeways so as to wedge firmly down between the vee's with the handsaw nicely sandwiched between, low down for topping and filing and raised for the set.

Thanks for that - just the kind of thing I was hoping for.

BugBear