RCD

[Nev Hallam]

I have a double garage workshop, I need to put some suitable power in, other than what I have already.
I need to buy an RCD untit/isolator, I was thinking ebay to save money, just not too sure what exactly to buy. I guess I need more than 3 way,
1-table saw
2-planer thicknesser
3-plugs sockets, which will power batteries power tools etc.
4-lights
I have a morticer on a plug but not sure if to put on a 3 pin type connection.
Wondered if anyone could point out what type of isolator would be best, before I just buy one.

Cheers.

 

[Lons]

Hi

My initial reaction to your question I'm afraid is that if you haven't the knowledge to work out what is required then you might not have the skills to install it properly.

Strictly speaking of course the wiring should I believe be regulated by local building control and you would be contravening these regs if you didn't get approval.

Sorry to seem negative but IMHO you really should get an electrician to sort it out - It can kill you :shock:

My appologies if my assumptions are wrong.

Bob

 

[misterfish]

The rules state that work of this type must be done by a competent person - if you look around you'll find a fair bit of info about this (including a fair amount of criticism).

You mention that there is power already available - is this from a dedicated feed from your consumer unit or is it just a couple of sockets on an existing ring circuit?

Realistically if you want to be running the equipment you mention (and also a dust/chip extractor) you need a decent dedicated supply on its own circuit from the main consumer unit and this would connect to the new unit you want to buy for the garage. I'd be looking at something with at least 7 'ways' of which two would be taken up with an RDC main switch. Then a 6 amp type B for the lights, a 32 amp for the sockets in a ring circuit. As for the planer and table saw it depends on their requirements - my planer thicnesser runs from an ordinary socket but the table saw needs its own dedicated 16 amp circuit with a type C as the type B trips with the initial surge. The cable supply to the consumer unit needs to be adequate - my workshop has a 10mm cable supply with two 6 amp lighting circuits, two 32 amp ring circuits and the dedicated 16 amp table saw circuit. I also have two spare ways for future enhancements (better planer thicknesser for example)

Despite this, if you are not confident in your abilities and unsure what you are doing then get a sparky. Electricity is dangerous and takes no prisoners.

As you mention Ebay then http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/8-WAY-80A-RCD-INS ... 0594495106 looks good value and shoud give you all the flexibility and future potential you should need.

Misterfish

 

[Lons]

The rules state that work of this type must be done by a competent person - if you look around you'll find a fair bit of info about this (including a fair amount of criticism).

You mention that there is power already available - is this from a dedicated feed from your consumer unit or is it just a couple of sockets on an existing ring circuit?


Despite this, if you are not confident in your abilities and unsure what you are doing then get a sparky. Electricity is dangerous and takes no prisoners.

.

Misterfish

Bit of a grey area but I'd suggest that this is a little beyond the addition of a couple of sockets into and existing ring main and here's a simplified quote of the current regs.
In my view, the building inspector would probably view this as notifiable.

Mind - I would take the risk and do it myself as I am confident in my ability to do a good job and I think most of us on here would take that extra bit of care to do so :!:

With effect from 1st January 2005, Part P (Electrical safety) of the Building Regulations came into force, these mean that only very limited work can be carried out by non-certified people without notification to the local Building Control authority.

Work which can be carried out by a non-certified individual without notification consists of:

•Replacement of fittings such as sockets, switches and light fittings.
•Replacement of the cable for a single circuit where it has been damaged.
•Work that is not in the bathroom or kitchen and consists of:
◦Adding additional lighting, light fittings and switches, to an existing circuit.
◦Adding additional sockets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial main.
◦Installing additional earth bonding.
All this is conditional upon the use of suitable cable and fittings for the application, that the circuit protective measures are unaffected and suitable for protecting the new circuit, and that all work complies with all other appropriate regulations.

All other work must either be carried out by certified individuals/companies or notified to the local Building Control before work begins, this includes:

•All new or modifications to the electrical wiring within bathrooms or shower rooms.
•Installation or modification of electric underfloor or ceiling heating.
•Garden lighting or power installation.
•Other specialist electrical installation, examples being, Photovoltaic Solar and micro CHP power systems.
If in doubt, check with the local Building Control.

These rules DO apply to DIY activities, anyone carrying out DIY changes which are notifiable will have to submit a building notice to the local authority before starting work and pay the fee to have the work inspected and tested.

Problems may be encountered when trying to sell a property which has had notifiable electrical work carried out but for which the appropriate certificate cannot be produced.

 

[Digit]

Pretty much anything other than a complete new installation if I read that correctly.

Roy.

 

[Lons]

Pretty much anything other than a complete new installation if I read that correctly.

Roy.

Not necessarily Roy and certainly not the interpretation of my BI mate who says:
"if you go back to the consumer unit and install a ring from that whether or not via another additional consumer / garage unit or RCD then that can be construed as a new / additional installation and is therefore certifiable."

It is his view however and not necessarily that of others which is why I said "grey area"

He also said that "a normal garage supply is intended for the usual power tools / battery chargers / hedge trimmers etc. and as such not really suitable for heavier machinery. A workshop should be properly wired and protected!" A fact we all know of course which is why we're discussing it and why most of us have probably made additional provision.

Obviously, I spoke to him in confidence - off the record and gave no information.

As an aside - he was a qualified electrician before he qualified as a BI and is a down to earth honest guy. I first met him when I taught him at college.
Bob

 

[Digit]

I'm not disagreeing with you Lons, I was simply applying a personal interpretation to that which you posted. Once again I find the law means whatever interpretation is put on it.
Just look at how often a new law is 'tested' to see how the courts will interpret it.
IMO laws should not need 'interpretation!'
Some time ago I asked on a DIY forum whether I could legally do a particular job on a gas installation, I gave up!
None of the registered gas fitters could agree one way or 'tother!
The last time I spoke to our local Council I got a definite 'no!' on a job. I phoned again a week later and got a definite 'yes!'
The Trading Standards once threatened to take me to court on their 'interpretation', then gave up when I argued that my interpretation was equally valid.
I have very little faith left in our legal system I'm afraid.

Roy.

 

[Lons]

I'm not disagreeing with you Lons, I was simply applying a personal interpretation to that which you posted. Once again I find the law means whatever interpretation is put on it.
Just look at how often a new law is 'tested' to see how the courts will interpret it.
IMO laws should not need 'interpretation!'
Some time ago I asked on a DIY forum whether I could legally do a particular job on a gas installation, I gave up!
None of the registered gas fitters could agree one way or 'tother!
The last time I spoke to our local Council I got a definite 'no!' on a job. I phoned again a week later and got a definite 'yes!'
The Trading Standards once threatened to take me to court on their 'interpretation', then gave up when I argued that my interpretation was equally valid.
I have very little faith left in our legal system I'm afraid.

Roy.

I wasn't disagreeing with you either Roy. It was an example of exactly what you have just posted.
I'm with you, it seems everything is a matter of opinion. I converted a grade 2 listed stables a few years ago and the planning officials were right swines. They admitted they would rather see the place fall down.

Head guy was off sick halfway through and his cover thought the conversion was excellent, sympathetic and an enhancement. (My customer thought so too).

My mate is actually the BI responsible for overseeing my own ongoing extension and even though he knows I have overspecced everything he does his job and checks what he's supposed to.

It's a laugh really as I taught him a lot of it but I'm way out of touch now as the bloody rules are changing far too often IMO.

What was the gas problem? I thought that you were allowed to do anything to a gas installation with the clear exception that you are not allowed to make the actual connection or to repair / service an appliance directly connected. The only exception being an auto shut off bayonet plug connection such as often fitted to a cooker and deemed safe.

I'm probably way out of date on this too though.

Bob

 

[Digit]

I certainly am out of date Lons, and one of the reasons I have such little faith in some of these things is that I can remember such legalities as knife switches and neutral fuses!

Roy.

 

[Lons]

I certainly am out of date Lons, and one of the reasons I have such little faith in some of these things is that I can remember such legalities as knife switches and neutral fuses!

Roy.

I'm a real cynic (wife says grumpy old man :lol: but I always feel that there are underlying reasons for change and most of those have to do with money :!:

Councils in our area were merged last recently supposedly to save money wich it definately does not. prior to the merge.

A BI window install inspection was £56 it is now £112. Just get a shrug of the shoulders when you ask why? :?

Bob

 

[Digit]

Being retired Lons my pension, plus the wife's, changes, but with the usual careful control of government it changes at a different time of the year to the community charge.
Last year it changed five times!
The Council sends us a letter explaining in detail the changes, now I have an above average IQ, but understand it? Not a cat in hell's chance. No prob, call in at the local office.
Joke! They can't understand it either and suggest that we wait for the bill.
This has happened every time for twenty years!
But they do have a set of illustrations on the wall on how to wash your hands, helps to pass the time whilst you are waiting I suppose!

Roy.

 

[Lons]

Being retired Lons my pension, plus the wife's, changes, but with the usual careful control of government it changes at a different time of the year to the community charge.
Last year it changed five times!
The Council sends us a letter explaining in detail the changes, now I have an above average IQ, but understand it? Not a cat in hell's chance. No prob, call in at the local office.
Joke! They can't understand it either and suggest that we wait for the bill.
This has happened every time for twenty years!
But they do have a set of illustrations on the wall on how to wash your hands, helps to pass the time whilst you are waiting I suppose!

Roy.

Official gobbledegook speak.
If it's wrapped up so normal folk can't understand then the majority give up and they get away with it.

My missus is a staff nurse and although employed at a prison is NHS staff.
Can we understand how they work out her monthly salary. Not a chance - they add bits on all over the place and take it back in others. Impossible to get sense from human resources either!

I do my own accounts for my business. dead easy - organised, simple almost foolproof.
Try to sort out my tax using similar logical methods and can do so without problem. Get the same answers when working it out using IR methods - just takes 3 times longer and goes twice around the houses :!:

Anyway you lucky person - wish I could retire but it'll be another 4 or 5 years I recon

Bob

 

[Digit]

Actually Bob I didn't want to retire, I awoke one morning with a large black hole in the vision of my left eye so that within hours I was in hospital having the retina lazered into place.
Snag was that has left me with blurred vision in that eye close up. At a distance there is no problem but close up I have to close my eye, and you try soldering or probing a live circuit with no depth perception! :lol:
Even then officialdom managed to screw everything up.
When my wife retired her pension was sorted out at our home over a cup of coffee, mine took 18 months!
I was classified as disabled and had to have a medical, the doc turned up then refused to examine me as that same morning I had received a letter from the DSS classing me as fit due to the doctors report!
Officials? I loathe them!

Roy.

 

[Lons]

Actually Bob I didn't want to retire, I awoke one morning with a large black hole in the vision of my left eye so that within hours I was in hospital having the retina lazered into place.
Snag was that has left me with blurred vision in that eye close up. At a distance there is no problem but close up I have to close my eye, and you try soldering or probing a live circuit with no depth perception! :lol:
Even then officialdom managed to screw everything up.
When my wife retired her pension was sorted out at our home over a cup of coffee, mine took 18 months!
I was classified as disabled and had to have a medical, the doc turned up then refused to examine me as that same morning I had received a letter from the DSS classing me as fit due to the doctors report!
Officials? I loathe them!

Roy.

Bloody hell :!:

You've had a rough time of it - so sorry to hear that.
Just shows you have to live a little for today and not put too much off 'till tomorrow doesn't it.

My father was a miner and he died 8 years ago of emphysema contracted from coal dust. i dealt with the powers that be for 4 years before and after his death and it was a nightmare. I came to realise that by delaying decisions on compensation until after his death they could significantly reduce the payment. Mercenary B******* :x

I can sympathise in a strange sort of way with your vision as well. I've been short sighted all my life and after a very long time procrastinating as my biggest fear was losing my sight, I eventually took the plunge and had my eyes lasered. Was -5.5 / -6.0
The results are excellent and I now have 20 /20 vision with none of the problems I had with contacts and specs so it was worth every penny but during the the lead up to the treatment, I was a nervous wreck imagining what could go wrong.

rgds

Bob

 

[Digit]

The laser treatment you had is different Bob. With a macular hole the rods and cones drop away, the laser welds the edges back to prevent any further loss, but that cannot reverse the damage.
You sit with you head in a clamp and they fire this laser at the edges to fuse the edges to the back of the eye.
'This won't hurt!'
Them or me I wondered?
It doesn't, at least not when the do it, but you feel like your eyeball has been boiled about an hour later and all you can see is a red haze.
The most worrying part Bob was nobody could understand what had caused it so i could not be given a prognosis, so for 22 months I sweated out the fear of losing the sight in the other eye.
A retired American doctor who had been a customer of mine finally suggested that the cause was ultra violet radiation from heavy welding currents years before when I was trapped in a welding machine at Vauxhaul motors.
The consultants at the hospital then had an 'Ah-ha!' moment and agreed.
I have regular checks and that's nearly 10 years ago now.

Roy.

 

[Lons]

The laser treatment you had is different Bob. With a macular hole the rods and cones drop away, the laser welds the edges back to prevent any further loss, but that cannot reverse the damage.
You sit with you head in a clamp and they fire this laser at the edges to fuse the edges to the back of the eye.
'This won't hurt!'
Them or me I wondered?
It doesn't, at least not when the do it, but you feel like your eyeball has been boiled about an hour later and all you can see is a red haze.
The most worrying part Bob was nobody could understand what had caused it so i could not be given a prognosis, so for 22 months I sweated out the fear of losing the sight in the other eye.
A retired American doctor who had been a customer of mine finally suggested that the cause was ultra violet radiation from heavy welding currents years before when I was trapped in a welding machine at Vauxhaul motors.
The consultants at the hospital then had an 'Ah-ha!' moment and agreed.
I have regular checks and that's nearly 10 years ago now.

Roy.

Yes, actually I am aware of how serious it is, (I'm just about the only member of my family who isn't bloody medical - conversations get REALLY boring :roll: ) and I can't imagine the anxiety you must have gone through. My laser stuff didn't hurt but I'm a real wimp. :lol:

As the damage was caused by conditions at work, your former employer / insurers should be liable are they not? doesn't matter it's 10 years ago I would have thought.

Bob

 

[Digit]

I worked for Vauxhall about 30 yrs before the damage showed up Bob, I haven't a clue as to how or why but the medicos all seemed to think that was the cause.
After getting over the shock, and the fear of going blind, I was quite chuffed with the idea of retiring early.

Roy.

 

[Lons]

I worked for Vauxhall about 30 yrs before the damage showed up Bob, I haven't a clue as to how or why but the medicos all seemed to think that was the cause.
After getting over the shock, and the fear of going blind, I was quite chuffed with the idea of retiring early.

Roy.

Roy, I think if it was me I'd be talking to one of the claims solicitors - doesn't cost anything to find out.

Vauxhall would have employers liability insurance for just that purpose and if you are entitled to any sort of compensation, I'm sure it would be very useful to you in your retirement.

Bob

 

[Digit]

It would indeed, but unless the law has changed there is a three year cut off for claims, but then, the law may well have changed so some checking can't do any harm can it?

Roy.

 

[jimi43]

I sympathise and understand your predicament entirely Roy.

At 21 I was a passenger in a car hit head on by a councellor driving on the wrong side of the road at 20mph which left me with a retinal detachment. (oh the irony!)

I lost the vision in my right eye as a consequence just as I was embarking on a career as a radio engineer! I actually learned depth perception....with only monocular vision you blink and make tiny movements to the head and the brain learns to work the stereo vision image out.....it takes about 6 months.

I can now solder and work out 3D as if I had two eyes. You are actually in a worse position wrt depth perception as the brain has something to work with so doesn't bother to get another solution.

As far as Part P is concerned....what I did (not having nor being interested in getting requalified)...I do the wiring and get a mate (who is qualified) to test and connect the final stages up and issue a certificate.

Jim