Saw stop

[Jacob]

Scaredycat. Not just motorcycle ABS's. Motorcycle and bicycle helmets, car seat belts, airbags, anti-skid, tire pressure warning indicators, ABS brakes, gun laws. Building permits, inspections property usage, height, size and building roof/cladding rules. Any facet of life where someone tell others what they can and can't do. (hammer) So saw blade braking is just a little puppy in a long history of us being protected from ourselves. :roll:

It doesn't compare with any of the above because there already exist extremely simple and very cheap measures which will make your TS and almost every other ww machine you are likely to use for the rest of your life very safe, and safer than sawstop.
First and foremost is to get the two push stick habit.
Crazy to compare it to gun laws - which in the UK save many thousands of lives, not just fingers, as compared to the USA.
Even crazier to compare it with various car safety measures which also save millions of lives, injuries, etc including third parties.

As a matter of interest, how many times has yours been triggered?

 

[Inspector]

I was referencing the rabid debates all of them inspired not the effectiveness or cost. I'm sure there were the same grumbling and arguing when your part of the world mandated crown guards, riving knives etc. decades ago by "real" woodworkers that didn't need such things. :wink:

I have triggered mine 3 times. (homer) (homer) (homer)

The first was touching the tip of a tape measure to the blade as it was coasting to a stop. It had a couple turns left before stopping. I wanted to reset a stop on the mitre gauge for the next cut and I was impatient. Yes it will trigger with the blade turning and no power.

Second and third times were due to resetting the mitre gauge to square after making an angled cut. I had the aluminium fence on the mitre gauge adjusted close to the blade for the angled cuts and I forgot to reset it away when returning it to square. The Osborne mitre gauge does that where a standard doesn't.

So three dumb mistakes due to inattention from being very tired the first time, inattention and lack of familiarity with that mitre gauge the second and yup a slow learner the third. I wear those screw ups, don't hide from them and learned. I have extra brakes and haven't needed them since. :wink:

I use push sticks whenever any cut is small or narrow enough to take a finger in anyway to the blade. The guard is always on unless making a non-thru cut and in those instances the riving knife is on and I watch where the blade will exit before cutting.

 

[Jacob]

Is it easy to re-set after triggering it and/or do you have to buy stuff? Doesn't it damage blades?
Do you have it on all your machines (spindle, planer etc)? (Push sticks work on all of them).

 

[Inspector]

You need to buy a new brake and a blade. If you trigger the brake with flesh you send the triggered brake back to SawStop for analysis of the computer chip and they send you a free one. Brakes are $93Can for a saw blade brake and $123Can for a dado brake. The first blade I tripped was a Forrest and because it was barely ticking over I sent it back to the manufacturer and they inspected it, replaced 3 teeth and resharpened it. Saved half the blade cost that way. The others were full speed stops and the blades were wrecked and I tossed them. They take maybe 5 or so minutes to replace and adjust the gap.

There are no other machines with blade brakes available but years ago SawStop had a video of a bandsaw they were developing that would stop the blade if it was touched. Don't know what became of it. Maybe Festool will apply the technology to mitersaws et cetera. There is no way as I said in an earlier post to retrofit a braking system to a machine that wasn't designed for it. Maybe someday.

I use push sticks on the jointer (planer) and if needed on the router table or bandsaw. As much as I would love a shaper I don't have one. The Williams and Hussey planer/moulder takes care of most of those needs.

 

[Noel]

Need a new brake cartridge every time it's activated. Blade damaged too.
FAQ: https://www.sawstop.com/support/FAQs

If the ANSI (US H & S) regulate that all/most saws have to have a similar safety system (ironic, see later on) it'll certainly make things interesting from a patent POV. Thought the Bosch Reaxx, a job site saw, (Sawstop sued for patent infringement and won, Bosch withdrew it from the N American market) was a different and better idea in that the blade was lowered by an arm and there was no blade damage.
When Sawstop was first brought to market the company lobbied DC and tried to make it mandatory that all table saws were equipped with it's technology. Didn't happen.

 

[Nick.]

Thought the Bosch Reaxx, a job site saw, (Sawstop sued for patent infringement and won, Bosch withdrew it from the N American market) was a different and better idea in that the blade was lowered by an arm and there was no blade damage.

Hi Noel,
agreed, it seemed a better system - Bosch showed it at Koln in 2016 - I was down at Bosch HQ early last year and asked about it - let's just say they didn't really want to discuss that subject

 

[Inspector]

Bosch did loose their lawsuit but only in the US. They still sell it here in Canada. It is $300Can+ more than the equivalent SawStop and I believe a slightly slower reaction time to get the blade out of the way.

Ironically they rejected the SawStop inventors system like all the other saw makers and only created one for their saws because they were sued by a migrant/immigrant worker that lost fingers when he was cutting flooring without guards or a fence on a job. I don't think he was covered by any kind of workmans compensation. If I remember correctly he was awarded a million or more. After that came the legislation to have finger saving technology on all table saws sold in the future. The inventor lobbied for legislation only after being rejected after approaching the manufacturers to use his technology. He was unsuccessful with making them mandatory and then created his own company, SawStop, to make and sell them. The new legislation happened after Bosch got sued by the worker.

 

[Jacob]

.......
When Sawstop was first brought to market the company lobbied DC and tried to make it mandatory that all table saws were equipped with it's technology. Didn't happen.

Something tells me that they hope to try the same here!
There's loadsamoney to be made from gadgets as we all know, but if safety is the issue then the gadget sellers should be kept at arms length (no pun intended - but a push stick does just that!). Particularly on this issue where better, simpler and much cheaper safety measures are readily available.
n.b. Sounds bloody expensive to run if you can just trigger it accidentally when just fiddling about quite safely. It would obviously get switched off if this happened too many times (e.g. twice).
PS I couldn't find push sticks on Peter Sefton's tool site. There are several varieties of "gripper" however, but these are far less effective and hugely more expensive.

 

[Inspector]

For the record. The Bosch cartridges are $129Can each.

For my 3 triggers the cost including blades has been about $500Can over the ten years I've had it. So $50Can a year. I know guys that drink that in beer in less than a month.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I know guys who drink that in a night.

 

[Jacob]

For the record. The Bosch cartridges are $129Can each.

For my 3 triggers the cost including blades has been about $500Can over the ten years I've had it. So $50Can a year. I know guys that drink that in beer in less than a month.

A couple of push sticks cost about £5 and will last for many years. If you make copies they need cost nothing.

 

[ScaredyCat]

and safer than sawstop.

Nope, you'll need to justify that statement.



.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Jacob thinks Sawstop is pointless, ergo it is. Q.E.D.

 

[Jacob]

and safer than sawstop.

Nope, you'll need to justify that statement.



.

According to a post or two above you can get a nasty cut with the saw stop in some circumstances.
You can't with push sticks - if anything goes wrong it's the push sticks which gets the nasty cut.

Sawstop will only work, if its switched on and in good order, on the sawstop machine itself.
The push stick habit will work on virtually all machines, until you get to the bigger ones where power feed becomes essential.

Sawstop can be activated accidentally by contact with wet material or metal. It's expensive and time consuming to re-set. This is a massive disincentive to using it and to leaving it switched it off instead.
Push sticks can't be switched off and it's very easy to make them readily available for all the machines you have, at very little cost.

 

[Deadeye]

According to a post or two above you can get a nasty cut with the saw stop in some circumstances.

Well, it takes almost a full revolution of the blade to stop - say 32 teeth going through your finger. So yes, I'd say nasty cut inevitable but less likely to remove the digit entirely.
Agree that keeping hands well away as an ingrained habit is sesnsible.

 

[ScaredyCat]

According to a post or two above you can get a nasty cut with the saw stop in some circumstances.
You can't with push sticks - if anything goes wrong it's the push sticks which gets the nasty cut.

Sawstop will only work, if its switched on and in good order, on the sawstop machine itself.
The push stick habit will work on virtually all machines, until you get to the bigger ones where power feed becomes essential.

Sawstop can be activated accidentally by contact with wet material or metal. It's expensive and time consuming to re-set. This is a massive disincentive to using it and to leaving it switched it off instead.
Push sticks can't be switched off and it's very easy to make them readily available for all the machines you have, at very little cost.[/quote]


It doesn't have to be an either or decision though does it, or is sawstop triggered by the presence of push sticks? (dry ones, obviously - who uses wet push sticks?).


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[Jacob]

....
It doesn't have to be an either or decision though does it, or is sawstop triggered by the presence of push sticks? (dry ones, obviously - who uses wet push sticks?).


.

No it's a value for money decision. How many nasty cuts would sawstop prevent - zero apparently, according to the above, though it would limit their severity. As a safety measure this is not very impressive!
Ditto push sticks: 100% - no cuts at all.
To be realistic - the biggest hazard for me personally is a still spinning blade after switch off, when the brake needed adjusting. Sawstop obviously would be a stupid remedy for this (leaving the blade spinning until touched) as compared to the usual brake mechanism which stops it as soon as possible.
So yes maybe there is scope for improved brake mechanisms, but sawstop obviously not it.

 

[johnnyb]

Just to add I've had an American saw albeit with a riving knife for many many years and I brought it used. (dw746). It's been a superb workhorse really versatile. It's always felt safe to me. I've worked on plenty short fence machines that we're very unsafe to say the least. As an American saw the build is beautiful as is the durability. In all the years of use only had to replace 2 capacitors which were available from a motor rewinders.the saw is definite mid range to not high end like the saw stop.
PS I also prefer slipper pushsticks I find they take that vibration away from ripping smaller pieces

 

[Steve Maskery]

Johnny, in what way did you feel that the short fence machines were unsafe?

 

[OscarG]

I'm all for pushsticks, always use two when cutting.

How does a pushstick save you when using a crosscut sled though?

I tried to make my sled as safe as possible, toggle clamps to hold the workpiece, both my hands are always at edge of sled when pushing. I'm still staring at an exposed blade though. If something freakish was to happen there's nothing to stop it cutting flesh. In that scenario Sawstop could make a life changing difference.