Lie nielsen saw problems?

[James-1986]

Hello all.

I bought myself a very nice 14" lie nielsen tenon saw a few months back. I'm a joiner by trade of 5 years making staircases and got by with cheap tenon saws or whatever was laying around as they aren't used much in that line of work. However I've moved into other areas and thought it was time I bought myself something to keep for the rest of my career. I freely admit I am rusty with back saws at the moment, however I know what it feels like when everything is in tune and for some reason I just cannot get on with this saw.

It has come out a few times, I couldn't resist having a play with it, just to chop up some scraps of softwood; I noticed I had to be very attentive to get the saw to track straight. I also fitted some doors/frames recently and did very poor cuts when sawing off the horns. However this evening I was lopping up some old maple spindles, the saw is binding so badly I can't cut through them! The strange thing is the saw is cutting curved.

So I pulled out an old disston to see if it was me or the saw. This thing is pretty blunt, a bit rusty and the plate needs straightening. However the saw tracked along the line I aimed it through with little conscious thought. So I have reclaimed some pride in the fact that it isnt all down to my technique.

With the lie nielsen the saw binds very early into the cut and I have to keep tilting it left to keep it moving, which explains the curved cut! Its also getting quite warm. The saw cuts easier with a bit of lubricant.

I'm guessing this is something to do with the set of the saw? They say its set fine on these saws. Sadly I have little knowledge and no wisdom when it comes to setting up saws. I know from experience that freshly sharpened saws can feel a little awkward and jumpy but they can cut through a bloody spindle!

Can anybody shed a little light? right now I don't feel like I can actually pick up this saw and crosscut a piece of wood. Its a £150 paperweight, still if all else fails the handle will keep me warm when I chuck it on the burner :lol:

 

[Harbo]

Take it back to where you bought it - it should not behave like that.

Is it a rip or crosscut?

Rod

 

[Jacob]

It's called being "blunt". It needs sharpening and setting.

 

[James-1986]

Crosscut for sure. I bought it from axminster but I would imagine it would need to go back to America to get checked out. I don't know of any companies I would trust with this saw for adjustments.

The saw is brand new, sharp without a doubt, I can get it to track OK through some cheapo whitewood and it makes easy work of it. They say these saws are sharpened, set and tested on hardwood before being shipped.

I'm wondering if its just a case that the set is so small its a fine line between having the saw square in the kerf and binding. I did my fair share of wonky cuts when I started to learn to use a backsaw, but never a curved one!

Does anybody else here own one of these?

 

[Jacob]

......I don't know of any companies I would trust with this saw for adjustments.

You will have to sharpen/set it sooner or later - are you going to send it to America everytime? I'd try your local saw doctor if you don't want to do it yourself. There's nothing magic about these saws you know, they are much the same as any other saw and go blunt just the same.

.....sharp without a doubt,......

It just needs setting then. How do you know it is sharp if it doesn't cut?

 

[Harbo]

It sounds like one side as more set than the other?
You could try a gentle stoning on the high side - but really I would not play around with it but get in touch with Axminster.
They have a very good customer care reputation.

Rod

Rod

 

[Jacob]

You could try a gentle stoning on the high side ....

Rod

Rod

That'd reduce the set even more by the sounds of it, and make it worse.

 

[andy king]

I'd say a lack of adequate setting problem.
Stoning would make it worse, a saw that has more set on one side to the other should still continue cutting.
As it's a tenon saw, should be pretty easy to rectify as sets up to 12PPI are easy to get hold of, but beyond a bit more problematic.
The Somax set has two versions, one down to 22PPI, but if it's the same as the one I have, it doesn't do as it says on the tin, the anvil (disc) part is still the same as the 12PPI version, only the setting pin is thinner, so it will overset by a huge amount.
It's tricky to determine a badly set saw, you alter the set to suit the work involved, so on really dry stuff open grain stuff it may be fine, but struggle on anything a little more resinuous, higher moisture content etc.
Sharpness of any saw can be easily determined by lightly dragging your fingertips over the teeth.
No pressure as such is needed, but if the saw is sharp the teeth should grab your fingers as you do so.
A tricky one to determine if its actually faulty or not, the set itself is down to end user preferences, so a simple reset would likely solve it from what you've said.
One other thing, its always worth holding the saw up to look across the blade, tilted so you look over the spine to look at the teeth.
Tilted to almost flat, you should be able to see if the set is there, and flipping the saw to look at the other side, whether its the same both sides, and also if there are over/underset ones as well.
It will also show if the saw has actually been set at all - it may well be its slipped the net, or even been set to the wrong PPI, maybe first of the batch after a run of dovetal saws for instance...

Hope this helps

Andy
PS: A scribble of candle wax on both sides of the blade may help more than oil?

 

[James-1986]

I know I cannot send the saw to America to get sharpened and set, In the past I have had hand saws ruined by the companies I use. They are fine for TCT cutters and any repair work to saw blades, I guess as the hand saw isn't used much in industry these days the men who maintain them aren't around.

I just did a few alright cuts through a bit of 90mm square redwood. However I'm not happy, it doesn't seem like it can do the work I intended it for. It feels like I'm holding a 14" fine toothed gents saw, the technique is far too delicate for something that is going to cut out deep housings or lop off horns. Their is simply no margin for error which could explain why it is getting stuck in maple. I can run a nice square cut with a £5 chippy saw on the redwood, it seems to me like they have gone a bit too far with the accuracy of the thing?

I shall get the set re-done to what lie nielsen specify and if I'm not happy increase it a touch. A bit of practice won't hurt either. I suppose if I could get to grips with the saw as it stands, my technique would be nigh on perfect. Then again I could just use the chopsaw

 

[andy king]

In the past I have had hand saws ruined by the companies I use. They are fine for TCT cutters and any repair work to saw blades, I guess as the hand saw isn't used much in industry these days the men who maintain them aren't around.

I think the problem lies with saw doctored saws and what is expected from them.
I've always maintained my own saws, only having them recut on very odd occasions.
A couple of times I took the option of sharpen and set as well, and they came back pretty well blunt.
Perfectly filed and set, but i've always found the machine filed saw just doesn't hit that sweetness a hand filed one does. (although the last time I had one done about 15 years back was pretty disappointing, but it may have changed for the better)
I reckon the problem with yours lies with the set alone. I'd tweak that a little and check it again.
As your old Disston works, even with the bent blade (on that note, flip it upside down and tap the end of the brass back on the bench and it should re-seat and straighten it - at least one good reason why to buy folded brass backs over glued spines IMHO) it would be worth doing as i said earlier, hold the Disston saw up to check the set, then look at the LN the same way. That should indicate how much difference between the two there is.
That's assuming they are close to each other in the PPI stakes - you will easily see if the saws have similar amounts of set if they are.

HTH,
Andy

 

[Modernist]

I hadn't seen this thread when I posted on the tenon and dt thread but I had similar experiences with the LN and eventually went back to my old English and Disston saws.

 

[pedder]

I just did a few alright cuts through a bit of 90mm square redwood. However I'm not happy, it doesn't seem like it can do the work I intended it for. It feels like I'm holding a 14" fine toothed gents saw, the technique is far too delicate for something that is going to cut out deep housings or lop off horns. Their is simply no margin for error which could explain why it is getting stuck in maple. I can run a nice square cut with a £5 chippy saw on the redwood, it seems to me like they have gone a bit too far with the accuracy of the thing?

Hi James,

as Lie-Nielsens page states theses saws are made with a minimum set of 0.1mm per side. You obviously need more set for your work. So the easiest way would be to get a Eclipse 77 from ebay and put mor set in te teeth.

I don't think they've gone to fare on this saw, it is just made for fine joinery work.


to all: you must be very carfull to side dress cross cut teeth, because side dressing affects the hight of the cross cut teeth, too. When I started in saw filling I ended in a full resharpen and resetting job more then once.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[MickCheese]

James

I notice you are in Reading so these saw people are close to you. I have used them a few times and found them very good.

Southern Counties Saws, High Wycombe.

They are on the Cressex business park. If you pass Axminster going into the dead end they are about 400 yards down on the left.

Cost me less than £10 to get a tenon saw sharpened and set. Did a really good job.

Maybe worth going in there and asking. The guy who runs the place seems like a bit of a handsaw fan, had a load of Diston saws for sale at a really cheap price, probably still got some left.

Mick

 

[Richard T]

What it says on the LN website:

"Your saw is very sharp when it arrives. When starting a cut, hold the saw blade so it is flush with the top of the stock. It is not necessary to tilt your saw at an angle when cutting. Best performance is obtained by sawing slowly and evenly with very little downward pressure, using as much of the blade as possible. Your saw will track right to the line. Be aware, however, that due to the slight set, your saw will be hard to correct if it starts to cut away from the line. If that happens, it's because you didn't line it up properly when you started. Practice on some scrap wood to acquaint yourself with how your saw cuts. If you had a poor sawing technique before, your new saw will force you to learn the proper sawing technique. Don't worry — once learned, it'll be smooth cutting. If your saw seems to "grab" the wood and jump around in the kerf, you're using too much downward pressure. Ease up a bit and take long slow strokes."

... so that's us told then.

 

[Jacob]

I just measured a 14tpi saw which cuts nice and freely set at about 0.25mm (blade is 0.7, teeth spread to 1.2mm). Could be less, but 0.1 sounds much too little.
Or is there any truth in it being good for you as in RichardTs quote above? News to me, and my eclipse saw sets must both be wrong!

 

[Alf]

... so that's us told then.

Phew, aren't we just? Interesting, 'cos I can't off-hand think of any other sawing advice I've come across that doesn't advocate tilting the saw at an angle, not least so you can follow layout lines.

Perfectly filed and set, but i've always found the machine filed saw just doesn't hit that sweetness a hand filed one does.

Same sort of effect as a machine cut rasp vs. a hand cut one, I assume, Andy?

But I wander from the topic again. Certainly sounds like the amount of set not suiting the end user, but the curved cut bothers me. I'd assume that was uneven setting, yes? If so, that's a tad disappointing for a premium saw.

 

[Jacob]

...... the curved cut bothers me. I'd assume that was uneven setting, yes? If so, that's a tad disappointing for a premium saw.

If you are having to force a blade it's going to bend a bit, which makes it harder to keep straight and tempts you to force it even more, which bends it a bit more........

 

[CHJ]

I was very surprised to see this recommendation in the care/advice para.

Maintenance: Your saw was shipped with a light coat of paste wax on the blade. Wipe it off with some paint thinner on a rag before use, as the wax could interfere with some finishes. It is a good idea to keep a coat of wax or silicon spray on your saw's blade when not in use. This will minimize the chance of rust forming on the blade. The blade is high carbon steel with no rust-inhibiting alloys added.

Silicone sprays and greases (including hand creams containing them) were banned items in any workshop I was involved in that had an adhesive or applied finish requirement.

 

[Mike.C]

I know I cannot send the saw to America to get sharpened and set, In the past I have had hand saws ruined by the companies I use. They are fine for TCT cutters and any repair work to saw blades, I guess as the hand saw isn't used much in industry these days the men who maintain them aren't around.

I just did a few alright cuts through a bit of 90mm square redwood. However I'm not happy, it doesn't seem like it can do the work I intended it for. It feels like I'm holding a 14" fine toothed gents saw, the technique is far too delicate for something that is going to cut out deep housings or lop off horns. Their is simply no margin for error which could explain why it is getting stuck in maple. I can run a nice square cut with a £5 chippy saw on the redwood, it seems to me like they have gone a bit too far with the accuracy of the thing?

I shall get the set re-done to what lie nielsen specify and if I'm not happy increase it a touch. A bit of practice won't hurt either. I suppose if I could get to grips with the saw as it stands, my technique would be nigh on perfect. Then again I could just use the chopsaw

James you do not have to send it back to America to have it sharpened, all you have to do is let your fingers do the walking and contact Axminster who I am sure will deal with your problem both quickly and efficiently. You could also drop a pm to Richard@Axminster who is a member here.

Your actual deal/contractor is with Axminster, but if you were to email Lie Nielsen I am sure he would deal with it. Because of the condition it arrived in I would settle for nothing less then a new saw

Cheers

Mike

 

[James-1986]

I had a read of the blurb on the piece of paper that came with the saw about setting and that if the set is not equal on both sides it will pull off the line. I took a fine diamond stone to the right hand side and the saw now cuts exactly where I aim it.

I paid £150 for this saw because I wanted and expected the best, now I'm going to have to spend time and money to get it to work properly! It still feels too tight in the kerf, I think it would be wise to send it back and get a replacement.



The deep cut on the right was how the saw was cutting out of the box, as you can see the cut started off plumb and it followed the line for 25mm then curved off. The two deep cuts on the left are after putting a stone to it. I refuse to believe this saw was tested before it left the factory, must have been made on a friday...