Is white Ash a nightmare to work with?

[OscarG]

Feeling a bit fed up as type this, recently bought a Record Power Bs250 bandsaw and a Trend T11 1/2inch router and matching router table, £850 for the lot.

I'm trying to fashion a guitar body blank out of white ash, 45mm thick. The bandsaw struggles to cut it, gets even worse when routing. I only have 1mm ash protruding from the template, using a trend 50mm profile guide bit, even when trying to do incredibly shallow routs, the router quite literally throws the bit of wood across the room. Happened several times. Scared to use it now.

I don't know if I've wasted my money, my woodworking skills are s*** or white ash is simply a nightmare to work with?

You guys have trouble with it?

 

[AJB Temple]

White Ash is fine to work with. 45mm is nothing. So....
Bandsaw - most problems are solved with high quality blade (eg Tuffsaws) that is appropriate for the job. Google them and speak to Ian. Take his advice.
Router table - are you feeding the work in the right direction?

Where in London are you? Might be able to stop by and have a look at what you are doing. I have made solid body guitars since I was 17 and you should not be experiencing things that scare you.

 

[custard]

Hello Oscar, Ash isn't an especially difficult wood to work, it's a bit less forgiving than say Cherry, a bit easier than Oak, but miles easier than almost any exotic you care to name.

However don't despair, there are absolutely solutions to all your problems.

It's nearly always a mistake to get new kit and then dive straight into a project with it. Commissioning and fettling the equipment should be a separate and deliberate exercise because it rarely works the way you'd like right from the box. Woodworking is a pretty cruel pastime for anyone who's impatient, when it comes to working timber the dice are loaded and the tortoise beats the hare every single time.

Regarding your bandsaw, Steve Maskery from this forum has produced a nice DVD that takes you through the steps of setting up a bandsaw, at the very least be aware that the blade that comes with any machine isn't usually all that great and I'd also guess that you're feeding the workpiece too fast.

Regarding your router table, if you're feeding from left to right than that's a dangerous "climb" cut, which will do exactly what you describe and snatch the workpiece from your hands. Feed from right to left and use a starting pin to commence the cut. One mill sounds a reasonable cut, but a 50mm thick workpiece is getting towards the limit for a top bearing template bit so everything has to be just right to guarantee success.

Work out all the problems with scrap and only once everything is working properly go back to your project.

Good luck.

 

[rbland]

Hello OscarG,

This is my first ever post so here goes…

AJB temple and custard have pretty much already said what I was going to say, but I’ll see if I can add any helpful information.

White ash, presumably you’re referring to American white ash, is usually a pleasure to work with and responds well to both machining and hand work. I’ve built two shaker tables and some other items from it and haven’t experienced any problems.

If your Bandsaw is struggling, I suspect it’s because you have a blade fitted which has too many teeth for the 45mm thickness you’re cutting. I think there’s a rough rule of having only 2-3 teeth in the timber at once, although I can’t remember exactly. Too many teeth in the timber at once means the sawdust isn’t cleared effectively and you end up with burn marks and a slow cut. This is particularly true of smaller benchtop bandsaws.

As for your issue with the router table, it almost certainly sounds like you’re feeding the work piece in the wrong direction. You should always feed against the rotation of the router bit, whether using a handheld router or table mounted. For a table mounted router, this transpires to feeding the work piece from right to left for external cuts and left to right for internal. If you feed in the wrong direction, which is referred to as a ‘climb cut’, the bit grabs the work piece and shoots it across the workshop (something which one usually only makes the mistake of trying once…). For handheld routing, a climb cut can result in the router ‘running away’ from you if the work piece is properly clamped.

If you’ve got a sharp bit and feed in the correct direction you should be fine. Your 1mm projection from the template is spot on. Just watch out for any areas where you have to rout against the grain – either take really light cuts rather than trying to take it to the template in one pass, or get another router bit with the bearing on the other end and flip the work piece the other way up, that way you end up routing with the grain again.

Hope some of that is useful. If you’re concerned about safety, it might be a good idea to get a dvd, as others have mentioned, or at least a book on the subject. There’s also a few good free online videos about, but also sadly a great number of clowns on youtube who show dangerous practises. I learnt a lot from ‘The Wood Whisperer’ when I first started out (I may be ridiculed for recommending him, I’ve seen a few comments around the forum saying he’s a bit annoying..). Do note a lot of the online stuff is American, which doesn’t always translate well to what goes on over here e.g. don’t go to an English timber yard and ask for ‘four quarter’ thickness… they thought I was a bafoon.

 

[RobinBHM]

As all above.

Ash is a ring porous timber and can be pretty hard. If you are feeding the router the wrong way it wont be very forgiving. A guitar body will need you to have the template clamped to different faces to avoid cutting into end grain csusing nasty breakout and snatching.

 

[OscarG]

Cheers guys! Thanks for all your input, I'll go through those resources. New bandsaw blade seems like a good plan.

Although they're new tools, I've used them both to cut maple (albeit only 1inch thick), pine, rosewood, mdf, cuts through them like butter, today was first day I've struggled and first time with white ash.

The router, looking down and facing the table, the bits rotating anti-clockwise and I'm moving the wood with direction marked on table, from right to left. When the bit is catching it's launching the wood back towards me, first time it did it I was shocked by the speed and force of it, lucky it didn't smash into me. I then used a bobbin sander to reduce the edge to about 1mm, it still grabbed it no matter how careful I was. After that I was frightened to use it.

I'm using a Trend 50mm bit with bearing on bottom. I have been using it to cut a load of MDF templates, I wondered if doing that dulled the blade?

To get the job done, I've ended up clamping it to a workmate and using a 1/4" old plunge router and a makeshift jig to cut half the depth, there's a fair bit of router burn but it seems to cut. Planning finishing it tomorrow. Gutted I couldn't use my new table.

I have a 12.7mm radius round over bit I was planning on using in the table, do you think that's likely to grab too?

Sorry for all the questions!

 

[OscarG]

Where in London are you? Might be able to stop by and have a look at what you are doing. I have made solid body guitars since I was 17 and you should not be experiencing things that scare you.

That's a very kind offer, thank you! Although I live in London I use my parents' garage in Sawbridgeworth, that's where all my gear is based.

 

[OscarG]

...and use a starting pin to commence the cut....

Ah, like the sound of that, so you lever against it to reduce pressure on blade?

 

[NazNomad]

Starting Pin video ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqBRbpvO8k0

It 'dissuades' you from ramming the work straight into the cutter when you start.

 

[custard]

Robin made a good point, routing end grain is more difficult (and "snatchier") than routing long grain. I guess the profile of an electric guitar means there's quite a lot of end grain or semi end grain.

Give yourself the best chance of success, start in a long grain section, feed in gently using a starting pin to help you get smoothly into the cut, then proceed clockwise around the template profile (that's right to left on a router table) making sure the template is snug up against the bearing throughout. If you lose contact with the bearing (easily done when you're rounding some of the tight curves on an electric guitar profile) then immediately pull out of the cut, retrace your steps by 20 or 30mm and start the cut again in a previously machined clean section to give yourself a "run in". The worst snatching occurs when you plunge the cutter straight into end grain as you're attempting to locate the template against the cutter's bearing, that's the thing you must avoid at all costs.

One final point, MDF takes a toll on cutters, I tend to use template copy bits with replaceable blades like these,

http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... m_724.html

if you've done the sensible thing and bought a pack of spare blades along with the router bit then you're not tempted to make that important final cut with a blunt cutter. One thing that sometimes worth doing with a really important job, run a layer of masking tape around the edge of the template for the first cut, then remove it for one final ultra fine last cut.

Good luck!

 

[Woody2Shoes]

One thing that sometimes worth doing with a really important job, run a layer of masking tape around the edge of the template for the first cut, then remove it for one final ultra fine last cut.

That's an excellent tip!

 

[custard]

By the way Oscar, all of the above applies equally to your round over bit.

Good luck!

 

[Lord Kitchener]

If you are going to trim guitar bodies to a template with a router (which is of course the correct way to do it) then you MUST purchase a 50mm bearing guided router bit with a bearing at EACH end.

On your template mark the parts that you can cut against the grain when you can see the template (when the template is on top of the body). Then trim them moving, as said, against the grain.

Then turn the body and the template over so the template is against the table, and adjust the height of the bit to suit, then trim the parts that haven't yet been trimmed.

If you don't wan't to buy the type with a bearing at each end, then buy another cutter with the bearing at the opposite end to the one you already have, and change cutters when you do the other side.

There is no practical way of using only one single ended cutter, unless maybe you are using a CNC machine to rout it from the solid.

I've made lots of sold electric guitar bodies (and necks).

 

[custard]

Lord Kitchener makes an excellent point, I'd forgotten that with a guitar body you could probably attach the template to the body blank with screws, allowing you to flip it over with a double bearing cutter and tackle the job going "downhill" with the grain. There's no question, using a cutter like this,

http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Onl ... m_270.html

along with Lord Kitchener's method, is the optimum solution.

However, I don't agree with his statement, "There is no practical way of using only one single ended cutter". It may not be optimum, but it is perfectly possible.

Here's a side table of mine that I regularly make, the Shaker "Boot Pull" feet and legs are made by routing a blank that's toggle cramped onto a template, screws aren't possible in this situation so the template design means it can't be flipped over. It has many of the exact same difficult characteristics of your guitar body, grain switches, end grain routing, etc. Yet I manage to turn these out time after time, without any problems, using a single bearing router cutter,

Good luck!

 

[Lord Kitchener]

Custard, double sided tape is your friend. I have never ever screwed a template to a guitar body, I've always used DST.

I wouldn't hesitate to cut out a rectangular table with a single ended cutter, but the curves of a guitar body are a different proposition altogether. If you tried it single ended you would get a rough surface wherever you were working at a shallow angle against the grain. Parallel to the grain no problem, perpendicular to the grain no problem, angled, BIG problem and one that is going to involve some very heavy sanding to repair.

 

[custard]

Lord Kitchener, you were too quick to jump to a conclusion!

Look at the photo carefully and you'll see it's not a "rectangular table", it's the curved legs and feet, which display all the characteristics of a guitar body.

Double sided tape? Well, I have to own up that I use it regularly, but the fact is it's frowned upon by many commercial workshops for template attachment.

 

[Lord Kitchener]

Lord Kitchener, you were too quick to jump to a conclusion!

Look at the photo carefully and you'll see it's not a "rectangular table", it's the curved legs and feet, which display all the characteristics of a guitar body.

Double sided tape? Well, I have to own up that I use it regularly, but the fact is it's frowned upon by many commercial workshops for template attachment.

I didn't realise you meant the legs, as they didn't look like American Ash to me.

Anyway, we can only go by our own experience and mine is that working the wrong way on , for instance, a Strat body is going to involve a lot of clean up work, far more than the outlay on another cutter is worth.

I daresay commercial workshops have to think about people not taking sufficient care to ensure that the template is secure, so screws are always going to be safer for them and the design can take the holes into account. But I used to get good money for my guitar bodies so that was one commercial workshop that didn't frown.

 

[scubadoo]

When routing guitar bodies you need to change direction so that you're going 'downhill'. This drawing form the TDPRI explains it.



And I'm sure you're already doing this but don't try and take the full depth at once, do it in at least 3 stages.

 

[scubadoo]

If you are going to trim guitar bodies to a template with a router (which is of course the correct way to do it) then you MUST purchase a 50mm bearing guided router bit with a bearing at EACH end.

There is no practical way of using only one single ended cutter, unless maybe you are using a CNC machine to rout it from the solid.

I'm sorry but that just isn't true. You can, and I do, do it all with bottom bearing bits. You can do the first 1/3rd to a half of the depth with the template on, then route pickup cavities etc and all the other things you need the template for. Then simply remove the template, and use the body itself as the template. Simple. Of course both methods work fine, just wanted to make the point that the bits he has are fine

 

[Bodgers]

Feeling a bit fed up as type this, recently bought a Record Power Bs250 bandsaw and a Trend T11 1/2inch router and matching router table, £850 for the lot.

I'm trying to fashion a guitar body blank out of white ash, 45mm thick. The bandsaw struggles to cut it, gets even worse when routing. I only have 1mm ash protruding from the template, using a trend 50mm profile guide bit, even when trying to do incredibly shallow routs, the router quite literally throws the bit of wood across the room. Happened several times. Scared to use it now.

I don't know if I've wasted my money, my woodworking skills are s*** or white ash is simply a nightmare to work with?

You guys have trouble with it?

I appreciate you have just bought the bandsaw, but it sounds a very similar spec and size to my Axy hbs250n I recently sold for a bigger Makita. Unfortunately, with a 250W motor (like my old Axy) I found that even with a decent Tuffsaw blade it just really struggled with hardwoods (White French Oak and French Ash) of any reasonable depth. Even with a bit of spruce at 100mm thick the feed rate had to be so slow you could bearly see the wood move.

Yes, you can tune it and make sure the blade is tensioned and tracking right, but there are limits to what a 250W motor can do.

Step up to a 12" with something like a 800-900W motor and a decent blade and your ash cutting problems will disappear.