How did Norris make their later planes?

[AndyT]

I recently posted some pictures of a late model Norris smoother that I was cleaning up for a friend:

It has the nice traditional curved shape, like its wooden equivalent.

I was reading about these planes in an old Christie's Collectors Guide to Woodworking Tools, published in 1984 by Christopher Proudfoot and Philip Walker. They wrote:

"Norris carried on into the 1940s and was revived after the war years as Norris Planes and Tools Ltd; planes were made by this firm until 1952. These late planes were not dovetailed, but made from solid channel-section rolled steel (how this was achieved in the case of coffin-sided planes has yet to be explained to me). The sides were often finished with a pattern of rotary lapping."

So, has this question been answered? How did they take a chunk of this stuff

and give it those nice curved sides?

It's maybe worth noting that both ends are open, (as I think the were on some of the dovetailed planes?) but this really does seem a surprising statement to me.

 

[David C]

Were the curved sided smoothers not castings?

David C

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Where are Bill Carter and Karl Holtey when you need them?!

I don't know how Norris' did them, but I can speculate. David C's suggestion of casting is (just about) possible, but casting steel is more difficult than casting iron. Molten steel isn't as 'runny' as molten iron, so thin sections don't cast well in steel. The shape, however, lends itself nicely to that method of manufacture.

If I were forced to use channel section to fabricate that shape, I'd run four wedge-shaped cuts along the bottom adjacent to the sides, and hot-bend the sides in. Then I'd close the gap by welding, and weld in a block for the support behind the mouth at the same time. Then I'd stress-relieve the whole thing by heating it and allowing to cool slowly. The base would machine easily - it's flat - but the sides would best be shaped on a linisher, coarse to rough out, then fine to finish, and the engine turning (or 'spotting' as some call it) last of all. The mouth block would also have to be machined at some point, and the fixings for the wooden infill.

There's quite a lot of work there. No wonder the finished planes were pricey.

 

[Richard T]

Andy - how did it feel when you were cleaning it up? Was it hard like cast iron or soft like mild steel?

I would guess that DC is right and they must have been cast. Maybe they used drawn steel for other planes but I cannot see any way to make coffin shaped planes other than dovetailing or casting with no obvious weld evidence.
Having put one together myself, I can fully understand the desire never to have to do it again ... at least not for £3. some shillings, even in nineteen fifty thing.

Karl H might know as (I read somewhere) he did get to know someone who worked for Norris in the late period.

 

[bugbear]

Where are Bill Carter and Karl Holtey when you need them?!

Karl Holtey signed up to this forum, but extreme rudeness in discussions led him to leave.

BugBear (naming no names)

 

[AndyT]

Hmmm... thanks for the comments everyone.

I'm not skilled enough with metal to tell whether this plane is cast iron, malleable cast iron or rolled steel. (I was only removing rust, not metal.) I can't see any evidence of welding - but it would be on the inside, covered up by the infill. The top edges are nicely finished - but that would be by hand-filing when fitting the infill I think.

What sort of factory did Norris have at this period? An essay on the Best Things website says:

"By the end of the 1930s, Norris planes were being made in a shed behind the house of Thomas Norris's daughter. After the war, the Norris name and designs were sold to an aeronautical instrument manufacturer looking to diversify away from military production. These planes are the so called "late model "Norris." Some time in the early 1950s, these planes were also discontinued."

- so they would have had access to more mechanised methods.

This is where I think we are after some more headscratching.

1st option - the claim that rolled steel section was used for ALL the planes is based on a misunderstanding; it must have been only used for parallel sided planes. Proudfoot and Walker were right to be sceptical.

2nd option - really skilled cutting, welding and lapping as described by CC.

3rd option - my latest daft theory - the deviation from straight is not very much. If they started with channel which was 1/4" thick on the base and 1/2" thick on the sides, they could have got to the finished shape by milling away cold metal. I can imagine that being done on modern machinery, but would it have been feasible in the 1940s/50s? It sounds very inelegant to me but maybe it's a machinist's answer.

What would help would be some more catalogue or advert listings from that brief period - I have a 1953 Buck and Hickman catalogue which only lists Record and Stanley planes (plus Millers Falls in a special section of American tools which are not available 'because of the dollar situation'!) If curved sides were a lot harder to make than parallel for a non-dovetailed steel plane, I'd expect to see a price difference.
Has anyone got a late model with straight sides?

 

[Paul Chapman]

Where are Bill Carter and Karl Holtey when you need them?!

Karl Holtey signed up to this forum, but extreme rudeness in discussions led him to leave.

He's not the only one. I know of several people who no longer post on here for the same reason. A great shame, but there you go........

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[TobyC]

The A1 models, whilst based on the original Norris A1 design, were not dovetailed but constructed from parallel steel channel infilled in the main with beech or sometimes other hardwoods such as mahogany but all finished with a very dark black/brown varnish or lacquer. The A5 round sided models were also based on the original Norris design but of one width only having a 21/8th inch iron and, in my opinion, made in three pieces, the round sides presumably welded in some form. Study of the inside of the mouth reveals two things, one the thickness of the sole can be seen and two the sides have the round raised buttons on which the iron rides to facilitate smooth lateral adjustment. On some models these buttons are not present but further inspection on these will reveal a nib on the sides higher up beneath the lever cap serving the same purpose.

From http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/articles/norris.htm.

Toby

 

[TobyC]

Also http://www.petermcbride.com/norris_A5/

Toby

 

[AndyT]

Brilliant! Many thanks for that Toby. I shall sleep easier now, and my respect for the skills of those old planemakers is even higher. I had read the first article before (but forgotten it) and the second one is exactly what I was wondering about while cleaning the rust off.

The one I have here does have the little lugs to position the blade laterally, as mentioned in the Tony Murland article, and the later model adjuster, which all fits with the time when its owner would have bought it new.

 

[TobyC]

Post War A5's have a number of features that distinguish them from Prewar A5's. First, in prewar models, the sides were dovetailed together using steel plates. In contrast, the sides of the post war models were welded to the bottom.

From https://sites.google.com/site/norrisplanedating/home/post-war-norris-a5

Toby

 

[TobyC]

Well, that's all I can find without doing actual research. Hope that will help.
Nice save by the way, amazing how fast nice old tools can go to ruin.

Toby

 

[Racers]

Hi, Chaps

So the late ones where made the same way as my scraper plane, so I didn't cheat, thats a weight off my mind

Pete

 

[AndyT]

Hi, Chaps

So the late ones where made the same way as my scraper plane, so I didn't cheat, thats a weight off my mind

Pete

Nice one Pete! A quick search led me to this post https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/post129463.html#p129463 as its first outing, back in 2006 - but the links to the pictures don't work any more. Do you have later pictures on-line somewhere at all showing how it was done?

 

[Racers]

Hi, Andy

I didn't do a WIP but here are some close ups

Made with a stick welder a hammer, bosh drill in a drill stand some files and a hack saw.

I had the bottom pivot and pins made for me at work but the rest was cut from plate and riveted together.


Pete

 

[newt]

Where are Bill Carter and Karl Holtey when you need them?!

Karl Holtey signed up to this forum, but extreme rudeness in discussions led him to leave.

BugBear (naming no names)

I did not know that, how embarrassing, why do grown men have to be so rude, I can only assume its to make them feel big or to cover up their jealousy.

 

[TobyC]

I assume you've already seen this on the construction of the straight sided variety, but I'll throw it in here just in case.

http://www.petermcbride.com/norris_panel/

Toby

 

[yetloh]

Where are Bill Carter and Karl Holtey when you need them?!

Karl Holtey signed up to this forum, but extreme rudeness in discussions led him to leave.

BugBear (naming no names)

I did not know that, how embarrassing, why do grown men have to be so rude, I can only assume its to make them feel big or to cover up their jealousy.

Quite so. Equally sad , I understand we lost Alf in much the same way. Her knowledge and humour were a huge asset to the forum. Lost because of some a*** h***. There always seems to be one who will spoil it for everyone else.

Jim

 

[Richard T]

http://www.petermcbride.com/norris_panel/

Thanks for posting that link Toby. You think you've been all over someone's website .... and then find you've missed something like that.

This must be the strongest and most stable way to make planes. Look at those inside corners for eg..
Big milling operation though - I'm happier with saw and file.