Green Hue appearing on freshly ripped holly

[Random Orbital Bob]

I've just been round a mates house helping him to rip a holly trunk on a bandsaw. The tree was felled this summer probably no more than 12 weeks ago. Terry dutifully painted the ends on my advice and left it in the shade in the round. Today we decided to have at it and rip some planks for stickering and air drying. The timber looked beautiful straight off the tool but within 20 minutes a green hue crept over the otherwise ivory/cream surface.

Terry commented that Custard had mentioned that this is common in summer cut Holly but neither of us are sure whats going on. Is it some sort of oxidation process? Is it fungal? Will it remain permanently? Would it not happen if we wait until the depths of winter to cut up the rest of the trunk?

I've turned Holly before and this didn't happen even though the wood I used wasn't fully seasoned. I've never before actually harvested it direct from freshly cut though.

Anyone know what's going on??

 

[CHJ]

Definitely and Evergreen then, never had that happen but invariably get it going grey through and through.

Any chance it's chlorophyll contamination from the bark.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I doubt it Chas because when its first off the tool its white (creamy). The green hue seems to spread over about the next 15-30 minutes. Terry will be probably be along later to chip in to confirm if it's still going a deeper green as by the time I left (about 2:30 this afternoon) it had a green hue but maybe it's still going on.

The only bit of bark was on the top of the log as we were ripping 28mm slices with two reference edges, table side and fence side so both freshly cut. I thought the Chlorophyll was only in the leaves anyway (sunlight trapping process to drive energy conversion)??

I also wonder if it's surface only and will plane out when they've spent a year or so seasoning?

 

[CHJ]

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/H ... gment.html


I have a couple of small bowls I turned green and thin and dried the wood rapidly when I knew no better than to just get it dry and they stayed bright white.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

How bizarre. The link you included isn't conclusive either. The thing that seems to me to be at odds with the idea it's fungal is the rate it spread. I don't exaggerate when I say it was white when it came off the bandsaw, we left it on a flat top while we continued to take slices off the log and about 20 minutes later the green stain had spread across all the cut surface. Not really pronounced, just a hue but it was fast. I cant see how a living organism can possibly colonise that much area in so little time so I think we must be witnessing something chemical in nature. Common sense suggests its the exposure to the air which is the cause, so I'm guessing something in the wood is oxidising (sap)??

It does sound like its ruined though unless it planes out. Bleaching is another interesting idea, maybe Terry should try wiping a cloth with dilute bleach over one of the planks now to see what effect that has?

 

[CHJ]

It's very frustrating, on the face of it a very desirable and rare white wood with the same frustrations often seen with Hazel etc. that takes a colour cast before you can get the moisture out of it.

I have a log of Holly that was winter harvested 2013-4 and been in store for 18 months+ and a quick check a few minutes ago shows it still at 35% moisture at its ends and under bark.

Resigned to the fact that at the end of the protracted drying routine it may well make good firewood.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

The thing is I've been given Holly before by club members which was still in the round but partially seasoned (some years I think) and turned it and it's produced some beautiful creamy white wood. So there must be some way of preserving it correctly and avoiding this staining??

 

[CHJ]

I'm hoping it's oxidization of some description and not sugars and drying it in the round and keeping air out will keep it light in colour.

As if drying the stuff safely was not bad enough, woods that are as perverse as making their own decisions as to what colour cast they deem to take just aren't playing fair.

I've had Hazel, Beech, Sycamore all good for nothing more than firewood due to dirty colour casts in the past, just occasionally a lump of Hazel or hedgerow Beech has mixed it's colour cast ways attractively with the twisted grain.

 

[custard]

All I know is that Holly is best felled in the winter when the sap is low (because the sap feeds the bugs that turn it green/blue/grey), it needs to be lifted off the ground as soon as possible after felling (because the bugs are concentrated in the soil), and it needs to be dried much faster than is prudent (because below 12% moisture the bugs can't survive). So if you want white holly you generally have to risk splits and warping.

It's getting really hard to find bright white holly in any decent sizes, and as my inlay stock is shrinking I'll need to track some down soon.

 

[Beau]

Only holly I have had we felled in the winter and dried it fast by the dehumidifier after reading that it needed drying quickly to preserve the colour. It was a beautiful creamy white as mentioned but had cracked badly but good enough for a chess board. The boards were a greeny colour on the outside but soon planned through.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Righto, thanks chaps. Terry has also just emailed me suggesting it is indeed a fungal thing but I have to say what we saw today doesn't tally with it being fungal because the green staining literally appeared before our very eyes (well in 20 minutes anyway). There is no way any biological organism can grow and spread that fast (not even in Dustin Hoffman disease movies!!)

So whilst I appreciate all that intel sounds entirely credible and I have no reason to doubt it, just common sense says that what we witnessed today must surely have a different explanation. But what, I have no idea.
I also had a canter round the interweb and the general advice tally's exactly with what you're saying Custard ie dry it dam quick (ideally on the day its felled apparently according to Terry). And I have no doubt that's true, I just cant see how what went on today is the same causative agent unless I'm missing something.

 

[Wizard9999]

What I read is just as Custard says, you have to get it drying immediately and quickly, the results is it bucks and twists, but if you want it white apparently that is the compromise you have to accept.

If anyone needs some Holly that is a lovely shade of cuprinol green I may know where you can get hold of some (hammer) . Yes, much greener than it was when you left Rob!

Terry.

 

[Eric The Viking]

This is fascinating.

Would it bleach with peroxide, possibly? Or would that damage the wood?

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Well I think the bleach experiment is one worth trying because if it is indeed fungal then while it's still active and alive then a chemical attack seems the obvious way to go! But again, I reiterate, I am really struggling to accept that the rate of change of "green" that we saw today was far too fast to be explained by a living organism multiplying. What makes more sense is a chemical reaction catalysed by the exposure to oxygen. Where's Richard Jones when you need him....Richard....are you there???

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Where's Richard Jones when you need him....Richard....are you there???

Yes, I'm here. I've no idea what might be causing this greening you describe. I'd offer a suggestion if I knew the cause. Sorry I can't help. Slainte.

 

[Wizard9999]

One of the interesting things is that the ends seem to be greening far less than the faces. That is a bit baffling.

The other thought I have is that as the wood was white when cut, maybe it is in some way being caused or at least accelerated by the exposure to the air. So thinking about it now I am going to try and get the pieces that are cut dried as quickly as possible by bringing them into the house and next to a radiator. Then, maybe, just maybe, when they are dry and planed, under the surface greening the wood may be OK. Well nothing to lose at this stage I guess.

Terry.

 

[MusicMan]

Just speculation, but is it possible that the fungus was already spread throughout the wood before felling, and simply changed colour on exposure to air? The fungus would not then have to spread fast to cause the colour change, and oxidation can certainly be that fast.

Keith

 

[Beau]

One of the interesting things is that the ends seem to be greening far less than the faces. That is a bit baffling.

The other thought I have is that as the wood was white when cut, maybe it is in some way being caused or at least accelerated by the exposure to the air. So thinking about it now I am going to try and get the pieces that are cut dried as quickly as possible by bringing them into the house and next to a radiator. Then, maybe, just maybe, when they are dry and planed, under the surface greening the wood may be OK. Well nothing to lose at this stage I guess.

Terry.

Think you may be pleasantly surprised

 

[Wizard9999]

One of the interesting things is that the ends seem to be greening far less than the faces. That is a bit baffling.

The other thought I have is that as the wood was white when cut, maybe it is in some way being caused or at least accelerated by the exposure to the air. So thinking about it now I am going to try and get the pieces that are cut dried as quickly as possible by bringing them into the house and next to a radiator. Then, maybe, just maybe, when they are dry and planed, under the surface greening the wood may be OK. Well nothing to lose at this stage I guess.

Terry.

Think you may be pleasantly surprised

Well that sounds positive, is you optimism based on personal experience?

Terry.

 

[Beau]

One of the interesting things is that the ends seem to be greening far less than the faces. That is a bit baffling.

The other thought I have is that as the wood was white when cut, maybe it is in some way being caused or at least accelerated by the exposure to the air. So thinking about it now I am going to try and get the pieces that are cut dried as quickly as possible by bringing them into the house and next to a radiator. Then, maybe, just maybe, when they are dry and planed, under the surface greening the wood may be OK. Well nothing to lose at this stage I guess.

Terry.

Think you may be pleasantly surprised

Well that sounds positive, is you optimism based on personal experience?

Terry.

Yes as I mentioned on the previous page my holly was green on the outside but was a lovely creamy white when I planed it up. Hope yours turns out the same.