YouTube addiction and frustration

[clogs]

what u dont seem to realise that in the Uk we are def kept down......seems a left over from the days of the knights of old.....having lived in the US for a good while I can assure u that there are people without the lux of big and fully equiped w/shops.....
As I was paid a good salary comp to the UK and equipment was fairly priced not like the UK....it was easy to buy what ya needed....
My wife still says if u need a tool go get it......mostley old machines that are now worth more than I paid for them....
then look at the other extreme of those back yard doer's in Asia they have even less than poorest workshop in the UK ...its all relative....
My dad fixed our old London house up with a blunt panel saw, penknife and some rubber chisels from Woolworths I guess....
I have no real idea of how many 4 and 9" grinders and elec drill I have.....he'd be turning over in his grave if he knew...let alone all the batt driven toys.....
Just be grateful for what u can have now, cos when all those bills start comming in u won't have money for any tools at all....

 

[martin.pearson]

Have you thought about getting out more? Not sure what the current state of working is with things like Men's Sheds & don't use one myself but they seem to cover a lot of the Counrty & they often seem to be kitted out well & may also have people who can help you learn, like I say not something I have done personally but might be worth looking into lol

 

[D_W]

then look at the other extreme of those back yard doer's in Asia they have even less than poorest workshop in the UK ...its all relative....
My dad fixed our old London house up with a blunt panel saw, penknife and some rubber chisels from Woolworths I guess....

those guys are like my dad. Maybe those folks are going away now, especially on anything that's permanently affixed to the house for fear of the township inspector or real estate inspector getting on your case (zoning varies a LOT here from one locale to the next, so that statement may not affect someone building in a county with a population of 30k people instead of 600k people. )

I don't know if we had chisels when I was a little kid. Realistically, if you have a saw that cuts straight things and a saw that cuts curves, some fasteners and sandpaper, you could make a whole lot.

It'd be an interesting challenge on here to literally use a circular saw, jigsaw, sander and nails and see what people can come up with.

 

[D_W]

(we'll allow for a punch, which was treated as if it was a step up into the upper middle class to use - to make the nails invisible, fill them in and then stain everything).

 

[D_W]

(re; the comments above - there are more men's shed's, etc, in the US, too - or the version of that, clubs, etc, shared workspaces - than there ever would've been in the early 1980s when I was a kid. That stuff was harder to find because most people wouldn't have paid a fee. Sears sold most entry hobbyists their tools, and I can still remember seeing the first grizzly (grisly) catalog in my grandfather's house (he was a farmer, but had bought a 14" bandsaw or something from grisly because it was cheaper....his bandsaw was for cutting blocks and fittings on wagons, etc- not a fun toy).

Is there a cultural difference in England (that maybe is eroding now) where if middle and upper middle classes had a nice shop, they wouldn't want it to be showy in the first place? In the US in the early 1900s when wealth was much more stratified, it became fairly unpopular to be wealthy and show it - especially during and after the depression)

 

[Ttrees]

My dads like yours is, came from a rural farming background with an extremely practical approach in regards to getting things made.
Talking to him as my uncle had bought some furniture that I think was made by the Robinson's of Cavan (hands), either him and/or my uncle visited the place a long time ago.
Came away with the feeling that the lads were toiling away making little money,
a bit too close to the old house up the mountains where they grew up,
or maybe even worse.

I think the only way he'd appreciate joinery is if things were so scarce that nails and screws became rare.
Still though, he likes his gadgets and other things which might be a bit fancy compared to anything made of wood.
Not got any much solid timber in the house, bar the kitchen chairs, and maybe a shelf from a headboard kinda thing.
He'd use some chipboard as happily as mahogany for a shelf if he needed.
Fancy computer sitting on some veneered weetabix, I don't get it at all,
plenty of nice bits of timber in the shed, but might be a bit toxic to be cutting and sanding compared to something lying around thats the right size.
I think the handplane to him is either an old fashioned tool for spring chickens,
or difficult tool to use, whether that be sharpening the iron or using it, I don't know?

Has all the tools to get stuff done, one of my earliest memories of using tools was a drill and jigsaw cutting holes in the corner unit for the new VCR.

 

[Kicked Back]

It's unfair to generalise an entire country, but something about American woodworking style just rubs me the wrong way. I spend more time than I'd like to admit watching woodworking on YouTube and I find that everyone I like is either British or Canadian.

I think it's that the Brits/Canadians seem way more comfortable showing their mistakes/fails rather than acting like they walk on water. Except Paul Sellers.

Once I realised woodworking is about making mistakes and cleverly figuring out how to fix them, I started to enjoy hobby woodworking way more.

Favourite YouTubers for this: Ben Crowe (Crimson Guitars), Matt Estlea, Peter Millard, Matthias Wandel, Rob Cosman.

 

[artie]

Have you thought about getting out more? Not sure what the current state of working is with things like Men's Sheds & don't use one myself but they seem to cover a lot of the Counrty & they often seem to be kitted out well & may also have people who can help you learn, like I say not something I have done personally but might be worth looking into lol

I was a founder member and treasurer of our local men's shed but it was so frustrating, trying to get anything done or for the committee to make a decision..
When there was job to be done they were fighting each other for the privilege of doing it then 2 weeks later making excuses why it wasn't done.

For the sake of my sanity I went back to being a grumpy old git who stayed at home.

 

[D_W]

Not sure how rob cosman would be anything other than the space and spend americans.

The youtube presenters aren't an accurate picture of actual woodworking in the US. They're the beneficiaries of the youtube adsense system and pass throughs. there have been some folks who have passed through the comments on my videos and seemed nice as they were getting started but then I find them later showing one video after another supposedly as topical, but the only real purpose is to get links below the videos to generate revenue. Nobody learns anything.

I have a few things that would benefit beginners and early intermediates (which I guess is where I am on some things, though I could teach an eager person make a chisel or wooden plane as good as any in the world. I don't really have the inclination to communicate that stuff well, though - it would take time, organizing some things in my shop, editing videos and getting a second person to run a camera. The reality is then 95% of the extra people drawn in would complain if something wasn't done the way rob cosman would do it, or would want to debate me on metallurgy in chisels.

Cosman is on youtube to sell. what he does for woodworking doesn't look at all like anything I've seen of any of the pros in the US (summary bits from places like the headley shop, Rob Millard, Curtis Buchanan, etc). He's a super pleasant guy, and I actually like the fellow, but his instruction is something to leave quickly as soon as you get basic skills.

At any rate, my parents (who are cheap, but now wealthy) often complain about the magazines and shows talking about household renovations, etc. they are also a fake look at what's actually done in the US. Some small percentage of the population either is so well capitalized that they can constantly undertake overpriced and soon to be dated looks in renovation, or are almost that well capitalized and willing to take a loan for the rest. The point of the magazines (now probably websites and other YT channels) is to carry water for advertisers and make it out like it's normal to paint the entire interior of a house every 6 years, replace doors and trim constantly, and to turn over bathrooms and kitchens every 15 years at a cost of 1/3rd of the house's value. if you hang out only with people in the top 5%, then maybe things will look like that. the rest of the US doesn't look like that.

Strangely, there's a cable show on here that shows up on the .# channel that shows renovations in britain, and makes it look like people do nothing but renovate their properties. Those TV shows also make it out like everyone in England drives a range rover and goes on holiday 14 times a year.

 

[D_W]

(not inviting folks to move to rural america or the lower income suburbs to see what the rest of the country is really like. I think going to very rural USA without a translator may be a little bit too much of a shock for folks from England).

...separately, I don't know anything of ben crowe other than that he makes guitars and when he first started selling tools, I bought some infills from him. I mean like when he really first started doing it, before he had an organized store and I by chance nabbed some of his first few wares from ebay....I had some back and forth with him. Genuinely nice guy, was fair to deal with and honest.

 

[EvaBeaver]

Rag n bone brown which is quite down to earth, badger workshop is quirky, I simply built it is very interesting and wood shop junkies from S.A. all do their thing without the massive budgets. John McGrath from Ireland is also well worth a watch. If you are interested in turning Mike Waldt is very good as is Kent at Turnawoodbowl. I subscribe to very few of the US channels who are generally more interested in making money from the channel and affiliate links.

 

[Kicked Back]

Not sure how rob cosman would be anything other than the space and spend americans.

His workshop is super cool, but he barely uses it in his videos. It's mostly for production of their tools. Most of the time he's using hand tools, at least in recent years.

I'm totally aware of him promoting his products, which gets a bit tedious since he'll avoid talking about things that he's not endorsing. That being said, I did buy a Trend diamond plate because of him (you may recall from the scraper sharpening thread you helped me in) and it arrived dead flat.

I like him because the videos are largely unedited and he makes a lot of mistakes, so I've learnt all kinds of ways to dig myself out of holes.

 

[johnnyb]

I'll say its very easy to be into woodwork and never make owt.i did that before youtube! I'm of the opinion that beginners tackling "fine woodworking" leads to a darent try it mentality. you could learn to nail a box together and truly learn about what makes a box a box more than cooking up finicky dovetails then everything not quite fitting properly. I always found the best instruction stuff is beautifully graded. just follow the course and arrive.

 

[D_W]

I like him because the videos are largely unedited and he makes a lot of mistakes, so I've learnt all kinds of ways to dig myself out of holes.

he is definitely a smooth presenter, even with mistakes, he's got a lot of practice talking to groups and teaching students, so there aren't going to be many people who are as good in a take with no editing. If you don't have that skill (I don't, not close), it's something to marvel at.

My point about the shop, though, is that I think the English presentation style is different - it's more matter of fact and avoiding being direct where it's not needed. Rob is smooth at presenting like that and avoiding conflict with people challenging the barrage of selling, but he also does show (when he shows power tools) a lot of stuff thats "very american".

But the way YT works, you don't get to see the folks who are actually teaching people who are more serious (vs. the sort of alternate reality of social media and the beginners forever kind of thing that sellers and cosman sort of help along).

There are real courses at the community college level, and technical colleges here (like 2 year degrees) that offer cabinetmaking (steve latta runs one that I believe is within a state system school here - thaddeus stevens college).

i figured I'd try to find what's in the community colleges here, and here's one outside of philadelphia
https://www.bucks.edu/academics/courses/syllabus/?category=Woodworking
(there's nothing as good on my side of the state, but that's not a surprise - there isn't much history here in terms of woodworking. The city is known for "throwing itself away" every several decades)

In general, the community college courses are cheap (much cheaper than anything you'd get from private presenters) and devoid of BS or complementary equipment selling.

I got a whiff of the alternate reality at a craft fair here when this guy had a booth (he was not long out of a 2 year program at thaddeus stevens - with 18th century pieces similar in quality to what's shown here. The difference is he probably went in with an intention to be a maker and he learned under Latta and others who are well qualified. Ever see any of this stuff on YT? I don't (by that, i mean this program has classes of students enrolled constantly, but you never hear of it. The bucks county community college is probably similarly straight forward. )

https://myfoundingfurniture.com/

 

[D_W]

I'll say its very easy to be into woodwork and never make owt.i did that before youtube! I'm of the opinion that beginners tackling "fine woodworking" leads to a darent try it mentality. you could learn to nail a box together and truly learn about what makes a box a box more than cooking up finicky dovetails then everything not quite fitting properly. I always found the best instruction stuff is beautifully graded. just follow the course and arrive.

I think what's lacking regardless of presenter is the desire to make something well. A lot of people find the idea of the woodworking hobby attractive. But they don't have a burning desire to make something well. The on-the-ground programs here aren't really going to coddle someone coming in and say "you can be anything, just dream it, here's this year's tool releases". they're catered toward a level of work that will turn most people off.

I'm sure most guitar instructors teaching adults run into the same thing - the idea of playing sounds great, and the students are willing to pay. They'd wash out of a community college program quickly (even in music) because it wouldn't be fantasy.

Unfortunately, this large ripe population with deep pockets makes something like social media and YT successful ventures for people who would starve if they actually had to find a customer and make something. It's not really the same on the ground here.

 

[thetyreman]

interesting you mention guitar instructors, my teachers made it clear that hard work and practise is what makes you a good guitarist right from the get go, and I soon learnt that without regular practise and discipline you can't achieve anything, I have learnt that applies to everything else in life, and I quit a lot of bands because of other members being lazy and undisciplined, the good ones who were disciplined quite often had some level of success or ended up in really good bands, that never happened with me, I just gave up at that point, still play for mostly for myself and it helps keep my brain active, currently learning misty the jazz standard.

 

[D_W]

interesting you mention guitar instructors, my teachers made it clear that hard work and practise is what makes you a good guitarist right from the get go, and I soon learnt that without regular practise and discipline you can't achieve anything, I have learnt that applies to everything else in life, and I quit a lot of bands because of other members being lazy and undisciplined, the good ones who were disciplined quite often had some level of success or ended up in really good bands, that never happened with me, I just gave up at that point, still play for mostly for myself and it helps keep my brain active, currently learning misty the jazz standard.

Mine said the same thing (albeit 30 years ago). I was taking weekly lessons and after about 9 or 10 months, he said something to my parents like "he's not practicing much - at this point, an hour a day or it's not really worth it and I'd suggest not continuing lessons".

Vs. the online lesson type things where it's more or less "please don't unsubscribe and stop the monthly payment!

There's a level of inclination and mental organization and repetitive ability that's far beyond me, so after college, I just kind of let it go, but from about 13 to 20, I played about an hour a day and it's strange - you don't really notice yourself getting better, but once in a while you go through a cover and rip through the entire solo and remember how hard it seemed to play it at first.

woodworking is a little less drastic than music. My first clue about it maybe not being a long term thing was a kid going to the berklee college of music coming over the year before I went off to college. there wasn't anything about my slow cover band playing that felt very good that day!!

 

[cgwoodwork]

Some of our Youtube friends across the pond do have nice shiny shops stocked with Festool products, Woodpecker and other commercial grade machinery … however there are many examples of humble beginnings starting before YouTube.

We only see the polished version which I expect is a result of sponsors, advertising and having a huge number of subscribers.

If you watch their videos in chronological order you can see how their revenue stream changes from using construction grade furniture, through to using hardwood and then from advertising - YouTube, Instagram and TikTok.

A great example of humble beginnings is 731 Woodworks On YouTube … you can see his success grow over the last 4-years.

As @seanf pointed out Bourbon Moth is now a full time YouTuber with 750k subscribers … as I’ve watched his channel grow through lockdown you can tell YouTube has been very lucrative for him.

The return on advertising and from sponsors in a geographic location like America will be huge!

To get the backstory on Bourbon Moth, Kieth Johnson Custom Woodwork and Key Woodworks check out the pod cast Shop Sounds.

On this side of the pond I found Peter Millard’s channel to be refreshing and it was from Peter where I found conformation that I don’t need a table saw to get started.

Further afield; Ishitani Furniture from Japan, Woodbro and Kobeomsuk Furniture from from South Korea have great content and skills.

In today’s world you can no longer take what you see at face value. You have to uncover the backstory, seek out a broader range of inputs, view through multiple lenses and then reach your own conclusions.

 

[Devmeister]

I wish I could agree. I learned most of my skills from some old English dudes who have passed on. True mates in the best way!

I learned what is meant by the shed. Bill Carter’s shed comes to mind.

After several decades I have the toys. It’s been a struggle. I have had to learn metal machining and pattern work. Your always one step in front of the scrapper. Some of the replacement parts were cast by Amish folks because the main line foundarys won’t touch it.

My last machine I got is a 1930s Boice Crane scroll saw. The gear box needs a total work over.

I have seen some of the shops you talk about. Often by guys who are at best weekend warriors with no sawdust about.

There is a market out there for these special dream shops and the tool vendors cater to this crowd. I caution folks about going down this rabbit hole.

so I don’t own a router table. I do have a shaper that was used to make helicopter parts for the Vietnam conflict. I must have removed pounds of shavings from this machine when I tore it down.

this is why I took offense at the guy who turned a sagar planer into a dining room table. That planer could easily have found its way into a tiny shed shop and served its owner for a few quid. It’s not as fancy as an 80,000 dollar Martin but for a bloke with only a few pound to spare, it would be a dream machine.

one of my mates welded up a saw mill using steel and motorcycle wheels. We get lumber from him that comes from beetle kill pine. Wood that would be cut for firewood but is now tongue and groove.

I have heard stories about some of these guys going full time as YouTube content providers. I would very much be interested in doing this but I have no idea of how this business model works. I barely can take a video on my my iPhone yet alone know how to edit and produce useful content. But I would be willing to give it a try.

 

[Ollie78]

If you are making videos on YouTube does that not automatically make you a professional on some level ?
I think its an artificial environment which is not truly representative of the real world hardly at all.
I find that much of the American stuff does assume you have a lot of equipment, this is not new. I remember watching new yankee
workshop and Norm would always be " I will just go over to my router table" and thinking "great how can I do that".
Conversely Americans seem to be able to do almost anything with a table saw, and build an entire house with a circular saw and a nailgun.

In general I think both space and machinery is a bit more affordable in America than Europe.
The best way to look at YouTube woodworking is just take inspiration and tricks and tips from it.
You are not competing with those guys unless you have a channel as well.
Just make stuff with what you have, that's all you can do.
Though I do dream of lottery winning workshop layouts.

Ollie