Yet another daft question :/ Plane floats.... I'm so sorry..

[Bm101]

I'm currently trying to tackle a bronze cast bullnose plane. (first stages of cleaning up). I have a half decent collection of new/old files now but I'm stuggling on the internal filing a bit. So. A simple question but one I can't seem to find an answer to. Plane floats. In all the internet advice I have seen they are used for wooden planes. My reasoning being, if steel they should be more than adequate for brass/bronze. But they are expensive new and I'd like confirmation before I even think about trying to buy my way out of a problem. Hopefully I can get round the issue without spending money with what I have. But it would be nice to know just in case. There's a chance I could make my own but tbh, time and motion studies and all that....

Cheers as always,
Chris

 

[AndyT]

There is a sort of file, called a dreadnought, which resembles a float. Very good on brass, so probably on bronze too.
There will be some in Richard T's posts, that he got at a boot fair, but they are available new too.

Edit: eg here

post576308.html#p576308

 

[AndyT]

Also, if you are trying to clean up 'inside the box' and do a stopped cut by hand, you might have success with an engineer's scraper, the sort with an end ground virtually square. Indeed, Bill Carter famously uses a chisel ground square to make this sort of cut on boxwood and probably on metal too, for all I know.

 

[Bm101]

Cheers Andy. I saw something similar in one of Jimi's threads. I'll look up Mr Carters site looking more carefully. (again )
(edit: I have a dreadnought, a bootfair or ebay joblot. Wondered why it didn't seem to work that well on wood. The thought of sharpening it..... sheesh. BBQ time possibly. Annealing might make it a less dubious task. Living and learning!) I see that some wise folks actually burr the edges like a scraper. Dear God help me in my hour of need.)

 

[rxh]

Please can you show us a photo of the plane in question? That might make it easier to recommend a suitable tool.

Scrapers for metal can be made easily by grinding the teeth off the end on an old file.

 

[D_W]

I think the teeth on a float made for wooden planes would be a bit too large and aggressive. You'll need something made for metal.

 

[Bm101]

Pics.

I have the sole fairly flat but I'm holding back on generally filing down to finished sizes. A lot has gone from the casting believe it or not but there's a huge amount to do.
I'm truong to rough out to a good approximation. It's a bit suck and see at the moment.

 

[Racers]

Cheers Andy. I saw something similar in one of Jimi's threads. I'll look up Mr Carters site looking more carefully. (again )
(edit: I have a dreadnought, a bootfair or ebay joblot. Wondered why it didn't seem to work that well on wood. The thought of sharpening it..... sheesh. BBQ time possibly. Annealing might make it a less dubious task. Living and learning!) I see that some wise folks actually burr the edges like a scraper. Dear God help me in my hour of need.)

You can use acid to sharpen a file, brick cleaner or vinegar degrease the file and submerge the file.

Pete

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I've never done one of those, but I think I'd file across the bed in the mouth opening, not quite to finished depth, checking frequently for flat an square across. Then work on the bed between the cast sides, again bringing it almost to finished size, and level with the mouth part of the bed. It might be a good plan to do a bit on the mouth part, then 'catch up' on the bit-between-the-sides, then a bit more at the front....and so on until the bed is flat all along and the mouth is just starting to open.

Something that may help is a couple of files with safe edges - teeth on one face, but not on the adjacent ones. Some files are allegedly supplied with safe edges, but there are often a lot of sharp burrs that mar the metal off to the sides, so a touch on a grinder or with a hard sharpening stone can be a good move. Clockmakers and similar craftsmen quite often make their own 'safe' files by grinding the teeth of where they're not wanted - sort through an old hand's files and you can find some real oddities made up for specific jobs.

Nice looking casting - might take a bit of patience, but that's going to be a really nice little plane!

 

[Bm101]

Thanks for all the help and advice as always fellas.

Good news on saving money on buying a float tbh. The wallet's been taking a bit of a battering lately, that time of year.

I have a blunt old file or two that I can use as a scraper. A chisel or two with broken handles will do for extra small scrapers. Looks like it's good not to throw much away after all. We like free tools! I'll wack em on the grinder today.

Cheers Pete, that's a great tip!

Mr C, that's fairly much what I've been thinking. Approximate sizing and flattening. Good idea to approach the bed in two parts. Thanks. I was thinking to also shape one side first and then make a basic template to mirror for the other side. I'm just trying to do everything in the right order!
My new files have the safe edge but I'll double check for any overhang.

Must say, the bronze is nice to work, it doesn't seem to clog the files half as much as the brass from the little block plane I 'made'. Not really using chalk or the file card at all.

Thanks again!

 

[lurker]

I think what Bill does would work fine on that.
I used a aldi half inch one to make mine.

Simply grind the end square this creates a slight burr
Scrape away but return frequently to the wheel to refresh the edge

 

[D_W]

Adding no value by saying this, but I agree with the above, I think I've seen konrad sauer show the progression (long ago) of filing open the mouth on a shoulder plane - same idea.

I think you're brave taking on a project like that, but we don't get good at things without trying them. My limited experience in the past has been that files generally work the best for one offs (finding a coarse double cut file for some things is a winning idea) because they do things evenly and not too fast. You may wish to make yourself a reference to file flat, as in, a platform with two sides that you can put astride of the workpiece for the final strokes.

Anyway, any time I've tried to get bullish and move quickly by the files with coarser work, I've regretted it. Does that bronze pin the files any significant amount? If it does, then my opinion is nullified as a pinned file will just mar deep grooves.

 

[Bm101]

I think what Bill does would work fine on that.
I used a aldi half inch one to make mine.

Simply grind the end square this creates a slight burr
Scrape away but return frequently to the wheel to refresh the edge

Funny enough I dug out a stanley fatmax, my original chisel set and put one to the wheel. I got no burr at all. It ground down completely even. I was wondering about taking a file to it to try to turn a burr. In the end I put it down and realised some things are best put off til tomorrow. Me? the steel? Who knows. Everything I've ever put to that wheel has caused a burr. Try and create one and a big fat zero.

 

[Bm101]

Adding no value by saying this, but I agree with the above, I think I've seen konrad sauer show the progression (long ago) of filing open the mouth on a shoulder plane - same idea.

I think you're brave taking on a project like that, but we don't get good at things without trying them. My limited experience in the past has been that files generally work the best for one offs (finding a coarse double cut file for some things is a winning idea) because they do things evenly and not too fast. You may wish to make yourself a reference to file flat, as in, a platform with two sides that you can put astride of the workpiece for the final strokes.

Anyway, any time I've tried to get bullish and move quickly by the files with coarser work, I've regretted it. Does that bronze pin the files any significant amount? If it does, then my opinion is nullified as a pinned file will just mar deep grooves.

Funny enough I wondered about making a simple jig to finish the sole. Two bits of timber set right on a bit of ply and some care might suffice as you say. (I'm learning!) I've realised by now (just in time) I should have shaped the internal parts first. Got away with it I think but it was close. Still will be. Down to about a mil clearance on the mouth. Ouch.

More filing this afternoon. No pressure! let the file work! As you say DW learning to move away from the *******. Softly softly catchy monkey. The bronze is very soft... Just like a saw but easy to forget. There's not a lot of room for error already which is quite scary. Got most of the bed (approximately) sorted.
Got a couple of hours tomorrow if I can sneak them in. I walked away from this today a bit tired mentally. Lots of concentration on a small scale.

Thanks guys.

 

[matthewwh]

Iwasaki floats can be used on soft metals and work very well, they won't be as good on wood after they have been used on metal though.

http://www.workshopheaven.com/iwasaki-woodworking-float-set.html

 

[Bm101]

Thanks Mathew. Bit beyond my current budget but possibly one for the future, good to know, thanks for posting.

 

[Bm101]

On that note. Couple of updated pics. Starting to get there now on the first stage of the body. Bed is pretty much trued up, sole is 95% there. I kept managing to over file the front of the plane out of square, one way then the other, so I came in and had a cider and a bit of tea. Part of the walkaway strategy. If its going wrong after 3 attempts walk away. Try again tomorrow.

Edit: Just looked at the first photos I posted and you can't really see much difference lol. This plane stuff is like living in a miniaturized universe. Every little thing begins to take on significance. I need to go to work and have a break!