X - Carve CNC

[sploo]

Fast reply thanks
They are meant to be the best of the Chinese ones.
The advantage i see with the xcarve is bed size for larger projects and maybe ease of use?
But as you say this one looks a lot more rigid and a much more powerful spindle that seams to be (by videos) heaps quieter than my dewalt router which would be mounted on a xcarve... wow that things scream!
what to do...... ?

Yea, a water cooled spindle should be much quieter and hopefully have lower runout than a router. A VFD should also mean you can run lower spindle rpm whilst still getting good power (unlike many routers). If you look at recommended feeds and speeds rates for many cutters, the hobbyist machines can't move fast enough (as they're not strong enough/spindle underpowered) so you end up with too high rpm with a router - thus a spindle is a nice feature.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

I'd probably build from scratch if I upgraded - but I appreciate that's a bit like the recommendations that people buy ol dindustrial machinery and recondition it. Definitely good results, but perhaps a bit much for a first purchase.

As sploo says, do consider whether the working area is large enough - my K2 is a 4' x 2' bed and that's been enough for most projects. My Bundgard is a lot smaller and that's really hampered its usefulness.

 

[Jmac80]

So all in all with postage it works out a few hundred pound more than an xcarve.
I take it you would both rather a x6-2200l over the xcarve?

 

[Jelly]

So far, I have used it to machine the following materials:
MDF, Cork, Slate, Plywood, Oak, Mahogany, Acrylic, Perspex, Delrin, Engraving Laminate, Aluminium (up to 1/4" thick)

You just feel there's a real revolution about to happen in furniture design, where instead of being confined to metal OR wood OR fabric OR whatever, suddenly the designer's palette has every conceivable material laid out at once, all to be mixed up together just as you please. In addition the degree of texture and organic shaping that CNC enables at a realistic price is astonishing.

It's a tough call because I was trained in a rigorous Arts & Crafts furniture making tradition, but even if it means abandoning much of that hard won knowledge I don't feel I can let this revolution pass me by.

The question is at what point do you jump in? If I leave it too late then I'll be miles behind the learning curve, if I go too early then I'll waste a lot of money on quickly outdated kit with too small capacity. Many of my contemporaries are saying the X Carve is the one, and the moment is now.

I'm not entirely convinced, if I can wait another year or 18 months I feel sure something much better, with a significantly more substantial capacity, will suddenly pop up at the much the same price. Who knows?

I'm honestly struggling to work out if you're being serious or deeply sarcastic...

I've used CNC routers & milling Machines before and can see their worth for doing volume production runs of complex shapes, but if you're doing short runs and one off work I struggle to see the advantage in all that the time invested in making a solid model, resolving issues with the toolpaths and order of operations in your CAM programming, running a test, tweaking the CAM Program and still being limited by tooling constraints.

I will say that this is hardly a revolution, Wadkin's vast machine tool range was founded off the back of their Pattern Miller machine and released an NC version of the same in 1968, so the option to use a 5 axis numerically controlled milling machine has existed for 47 years, and to use a manual version of the same has existed for getting on 92 years...

I like CAD-CAM and it has definitely changed the world forever, but I struggle to see that they have value and applicability outside production environments... I know several very high tech companies I deal with at work have the same outlook and keep an array of manual toolroom machines and the skills to use them available as it's quicker and easier to achieve a fine tolerance on a one-off or prototype that way.

Your years of skill and experience may well be faster if you want to achieve the very finest results!

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

I take it you would both rather a x6-2200l over the xcarve?

Based on what little I know of the two, the former looks much more rigid which is a key consideration. What do you want to do with it?

 

[Ram64]

Hi James,
Take a look at www.store.amberspyglass.co.uk
They supply a Shapeoko2 clone DIY self assembly machine which comes in a stock size or configurable sizes to suit. I too am looking to self build and am in a queue awaiting ordering information for a machine kit.

I have no affiliation with the company.

Cheers Nigel

 

[Jmac80]

I take it you would both rather a x6-2200l over the xcarve?

Based on what little I know of the two, the former looks much more rigid which is a key consideration. What do you want to do with it?

It's primarily for hobby use making wood signs in hardwood and softwood, also cutting small shapes in fairly thin 1.5mm - 3mm aluminium sheet.
Want to learn how to do it as it has always interested me and who knows where it will lead to in the future

 

[Jmac80]

Hi James,
Take a look at http://www.store.amberspyglass.co.uk
They supply a Shapeoko2 clone DIY self assembly machine which comes in a stock size or configurable sizes to suit. I too am looking to self build and am in a queue awaiting ordering information for a machine kit.

I have no affiliation with the company.

Cheers Nigel

Thanks Nigel
Off for a look now.

 

[Jmac80]

This seems a pretty good review as the guy already has a cnc machine.
https://youtu.be/sE6oabieqYI?t=300 review is at 5minutes in.
I notice a lot of the wood workers that were given them on youtube all rate it fairly highly but to me it seems like they are a bit more excited with their new toy and the potential possibilities, it's good to hear from current cnc router owners.

 

[Inoffthered]

Hi Inoffthered
Are you still enjoying the router? Any pics of stuff you created? ready to sell me it lol

Yes all good with the XCarve. A bit of a steep learning curve with Chillipeppr and VCarve, not least because I use a Mac and so have installed VCarve on a Microsoft partition on the Mac. I work on projects in VCarve then save the toolpath to a memory stick. Then, back in Mac mode, its just a case of dragging and dropping the cutting file off the stick onto chillipeppr , zeroing the XC, pressing go and away it carves.

No pics yet and not looking to sell either

I looked at some of the Chinese machines but thought the size of cutting bed would be restrictive.

 

[Jmac80]

size of cutting bed would be restrictive.

Yes that bothers me also.
I want to do largish wood signs.
After a lot of reading and viewing up options i will get the fully loaded x-carve..
Here are my reasons:

I already have the dewalt router
It's about £500 cheaper after shipping was added to the chinese one and then i may still get 2-300 pound import charges.
There is so many people that have it with plenty of walkthrough videos for newbs.
More windows 10 compatible than the Chinese cnc.
Larger cut size.
Thriving forums with lots of support for newbs.
It will be good for learning the basics.

Thanks all

 

[sploo]

So all in all with postage it works out a few hundred pound more than an xcarve.
I take it you would both rather a x6-2200l over the xcarve?

TBH I've not looked into either machine deeply enough to feel confident to make a recommendation. From what I've seen of the X-Carve it looks to have very exposed bearings (as opposed to sealed linear sliders). That might cause issues if you're creating a large volume of dust and chips and they start to foul the rails (i.e. good extraction and keeping the machine clean will be a must).

I've used CNC routers & milling Machines before and can see their worth for doing volume production runs of complex shapes, but if you're doing short runs and one off work I struggle to see the advantage in all that the time invested in making a solid model, resolving issues with the toolpaths and order of operations in your CAM programming, running a test, tweaking the CAM Program and still being limited by tooling constraints.

Lots of good points in your post there.

I mostly used mine for producing loudspeaker panels (so at minimum you're producing two of each panel, even if each panel is unique to that cabinet).

I think that even for low volume work, if you're needing to do a lot of carefully measured cuts (many dados, rebates, pockets and circular cut-outs) then the CAD+CAM+machine set up time can be worth it. However I agree that the benefit really comes from making lots of an item.

The accuracy can be a useful tool though; I've sometimes used CNC to produce templates and cutting guides to aid manual cutting, and I think it's well suited to that.

It's primarily for hobby use making wood signs in hardwood and softwood, also cutting small shapes in fairly thin 1.5mm - 3mm aluminium sheet.
Want to learn how to do it as it has always interested me and who knows where it will lead to in the future

For sign making you'll really want something with as large a working area as possible. I've not used VCarve (other than a test of the trial version a long time ago) but I understand it's very good for that sort of work. Not cheap though.

Yes all good with the XCarve. A bit of a steep learning curve with Chillipeppr and VCarve, not least because I use a Mac and so have installed VCarve on a Microsoft partition on the Mac. I work on projects in VCarve then save the toolpath to a memory stick. Then, back in Mac mode, its just a case of dragging and dropping the cutting file off the stick onto chillipeppr , zeroing the XC, pressing go and away it carves.

What's your gut feel with VCarve? I keep looking at it (not just for lettering, but now as a replacement for my current 2D/2.5D CAM software), but keep being put off by the price.

After a lot of reading and viewing up options i will get the fully loaded x-carve..
Here are my reasons:

I already have the dewalt router
It's about £500 cheaper after shipping was added to the chinese one and then i may still get 2-300 pound import charges.
There is so many people that have it with plenty of walkthrough videos for newbs.
More windows 10 compatible than the Chinese cnc.
Larger cut size.
Thriving forums with lots of support for newbs.
It will be good for learning the basics.

Thanks all

Congrats. I do think the widely available support is a good factor; even when K2 were in business the support was patchy, and on forums there were far more questions than answers, so a large community of users will be helpful.

You could later update it with a spindle. I'm not recommending this one in particular, but a friend bought a very similar eBay/Chinese model and he's quite happy with it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-ER20-WATE ... 0748327119

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

even when K2 were in business the support was patchy

Something of an understatement!

On the timesaving front, I did a lot of guitar fretboards with mine. All different radii, different scale lengths, numbers of frets, nut and bridge widths and so on. In Rhino3D I could use Grasshopper (parametric modelling system) to input the values above and it'd generate the geometry. Took a day or two to set up, but then each new board took seconds to generate tool paths. I assume Sketchup has a parametric plugin?

Definitely agree on things like jigs.

 

[sploo]

even when K2 were in business the support was patchy

Something of an understatement!

On the timesaving front, I did a lot of guitar fretboards with mine. All different radii, different scale lengths, numbers of frets, nut and bridge widths and so on. In Rhino3D I could use Grasshopper (parametric modelling system) to input the values above and it'd generate the geometry. Took a day or two to set up, but then each new board took seconds to generate tool paths. I assume Sketchup has a parametric plugin?

Definitely agree on things like jigs.

*LOL* K2 were a bit strange. I once phoned them with an issue and they were great - even spending time on the phone to go over some tips.

However, there were pretty much no instructions with the machine, and my settings for Mach were largely modified from a copy of a config file someone posted on a forum. Little things like the charge pump being rather important, but something a noob would never guess.

I have subsequently had issues with the Gecko G320 units, and whilst their service is good I don't entirely trust the system.

Guitar building is a great use of CNC. I've never actually done any modelling for the CNC using SketchUp though; mostly it's been an ancient version of AutoCAD (and before that, free alternatives) and a rather good (and very cheap) 2D/2.5D CAM program called SheetCAM.