Winzer Wurth

[BradNaylor]

Winzer Wurth are a strange company.

Those of you not in the trade will probably never have heard of them, but you will possibly have seen their logo on advertising boards at European football games on the telly.

They are reputedly the world's biggest supplier of fixings and fasteners. Their products are superb, but they have a reputation of being very expensive.

They work though a network of reps who call on trade customers every week or two armed with a huge catalogue and their price list.

And here is the strange thing...

... the price list is kept secret, even from customers!

Every time you want to buy a new product, you have to negotiate a price with the rep. Once you've agreed a price for that product, it is stored on your account for when you order it again, but it does make dealing with the company a somewhat tortured process.

What makes it worthwhile however, is the quality of their products. Their screws are peerless; in fifteen years I have never known one to break or fail. Their ranges of hinges and drawer runners are of Blum quality, and once you've got the price sorted, far cheaper!

Wurth have recently started opening a series of trade counters around the country to compliment their network of reps. They are set out beautifully in a self-service style. The trouble is, there are no prices on display!

If you don't know the system, you will be charged the 'list price', which is extortionate. You've got to haggle. For every seperate item!

As a rule of thumb (what's left of it!) I get a discount of between 40% and 50% off the list prices. I only know this from looking over the rep's shoulder as he works it out - they don't actually tell you anything!

So, does anyone else use Winzer Wurth products? Am I getting a good deal or should I push for even more?

I am told by my rep that customers 'down south' pay higher prices than those 'up north'.

Other peoples' experiences of dealing with this idiosyncratic company would be very interesting!

Here is their website

http://www.winzerwurth.co.uk/index.html

Cheers
Dan

 

[woodbloke]

Dan - in my brief time in the trade a few years ago, the firm I worked for always used WW stuff and it was held in very high regard but I wasn't aware of this very strange pricing policy - Rob

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Dan

The only things I buy from Winzer Wurth is PVA is glue and double sided sticky tap. Don’t like the very secret pricing policy and don’t like how the reps come and go none of the reps seem to stay with the company.

Have most of my furniture fitting from Hettich who are based in the 3rd city and Haffle. I get a good deal from both reps but I only think this due to the fact that they get a B.E.S.T ( bacon, egg, sausage and tomato on fresh crusty bread ) from my works canteen ( Jackies café which is attached to my workshop ) when they roll up so could be seen as bribery by some but it works for me.

http://www.hettich.com/en/index.htm

 

[CHJ]

I don't think it is strange at all, most manufacturers will have a price band for a given range of goods, normal big business practise, prices are based on guaranteed quantities, which in turn allow for production run estimates to be tightened.

This is used to negotiate prices with the distributers in just the same way as you get free delivery if you purchase minimum quantity or value from a retailer.

All the company is doing is operate without a distributer network, thus enabling a higher percentage of the profits to be received.

I suspect that it is the rep. that has to do all the balancing between quantity sold and price exacted, with his income or yearly bonus based on some performance curve related to where the bulk of his sales fit in the price band.

 

[tim]

I could see that that process would be reasonable when dealing with large customers or locking customers into one or two product lines (it is how the pub industry is run) but I struggle to see how this can be worthwhile for the sole cabinetmaker or small workshop.

While I do use several items all the time, I often have to use specific hardware for particular jobs and then may never use them again. I cannot believe that the increase in quality of their hardware is such that it would justify the pain of having to sit down with a rep for an hour or so to negotiate individual prices on small numbers of items.

Cheers

Tim

 

[BradNaylor]

While I do use several items all the time, I often have to use specific hardware for particular jobs and then may never use them again. I cannot believe that the increase in quality of their hardware is such that it would justify the pain of having to sit down with a rep for an hour or so to negotiate individual prices on small numbers of items.

A typical scenario which can be very annoying would be if you use regularly a 450mm self-close drawer runner and negotiate a price of £6.00 per pair. For a particular job you need to use 400mm ones so you order them up. You are charged £12.00 per pair because you didn't set the price with the rep. The difference will be credited when you complain but it's all a right ball-ache!

If the gear wasn't so good I wouldn't bother!

 

[chippy1970]

I have never dealt with them direct but when I used to sub-contract in Central London for other companies, they always used them and I never heard any complaints but I am sure huge companies get a better deal.

You get similar problems with a lot of companies now, I use Howdens for some of my kitchens and they have ridiculous LIST prices then you get something like 60% or 70% discount which brings it down to a more realistic price. Why ? :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Dan

Check out hafele soft self closing drawer runners £4.67 per pair 100 plus pairs £2.80 per pair item 420.03.421

http://www.hafele.co.uk/Hafele35a1/imag ... 4_4-15.pdf

Alan

 

[Pecker]

True story this. I was a rep for "Thorsman", manufactueres of screws and fixings. We were offering upto 99% discount on screws to trade retailers.

One day the powers that be decided this was silly and we would just reduce the *list* price down to normal levels, with max discounts being 10% off that for very large customers.

Didn't work.

I went into my calls and all I got all day long was "well Rawl/ Fischer/ Anchor offer me bigger discounts then you." It really didnt matter if you sat them down and showed them you were still cheaper. They WANTED the bigger discounts as it *seemed* like they got more off and paid less. Stupid? yes, but eventually we had to back down and go back to big discounts.

Woody

 

[tim]

True story this. I was a rep for "Thorsman", manufactueres of screws and fixings. We were offering upto 99% discount on screws to trade retailers.

One day the powers that be decided this was silly and we would just reduce the *list* price down to normal levels, with max discounts being 10% off that for very large customers.

Didn't work.

I went into my calls and all I got all day long was "well Rawl/ Fischer/ Anchor offer me bigger discounts then you." It really didnt matter if you sat them down and showed them you were still cheaper. They WANTED the bigger discounts as it *seemed* like they got more off and paid less. Stupid? yes, but eventually we had to back down and go back to big discounts.

Woody

Although I worked in marketing in the drinks business, we all had to do a stint on the road and I came across exactly the same. No matter if you showed the publican that they could buy Kronenbourg cheaper than Stella, sell more of it and charge it at a slight premium, their response was nearly always - yeah but Whitbread gives us a bigger discount on Stella than you do on Kronenbourg. The fact that after discount they paid £120/ keg for Stella and £110 for Kronenbourg didn't alter their mind set.

Just makes you wonder doesn't it.ccasion5: (hammer) (homer)

Cheers

Tim

 

[BradNaylor]

Hi Dan

Check out hafele soft self closing drawer runners £4.67 per pair 100 plus pairs £2.80 per pair item 420.03.421

http://www.hafele.co.uk/Hafele35a1/imag ... 4_4-15.pdf

Alan

That's interesting, Alan - thank you.

I have used Hafele occasionally but found them another company who can be difficult to deal with. They seem to have a very high minimum order level.

You are obviously also getting a big discount off their standard price. A useful function of forums like this is being able to swap notes with other professionals on suppliers' prices.

I bet they love it!

Do you get a rep from Hafele calling on you? I've never seen one in 15 years!

Cheers
Dan

 

[tim]

Hi Dan

Check out hafele soft self closing drawer runners £4.67 per pair 100 plus pairs £2.80 per pair item 420.03.421

http://www.hafele.co.uk/Hafele35a1/imag ... 4_4-15.pdf

Alan

That's interesting, Alan - thank you.

I have used Hafele occasionally but found them another company who can be difficult to deal with. They seem to have a very high minimum order level.

You are obviously also getting a big discount off their standard price. A useful function of forums like this is being able to swap notes with other professionals on suppliers' prices.

I bet they love it!

Do you get a rep from Hafele calling on you? I've never seen one in 15 years!

Cheers
Dan

Those are published prices on the website. NB it is stock that they are running down though. Minimum order value is £50 and free over £100. I've not seen a rep but then I haven't asked to. If I thought i was going to be ordering loads of the same stuff then I might try to negotiate a better price on those items. In my experience, materials and hardware don't amount to an enormous percentage of the job price anyway.

Cheers

Tim

 

[rodhardwick]

Does Winzer Wurth still exist, if so does anyone have any contact details? Thanks, Rod

 

[RogerBoyle]

http://www.wurth.co.uk/

HTH

Roger

 

[mailee]

How does anyone know if they are getting a good deal if no one knows the prices?? What a strange way to do business!

 

[Jelly]

How does anyone know if they are getting a good deal if no one knows the prices?? What a strange way to do business!

I think the idea is that the customer negotiates a price which they are personally satisfied with... satisfaction being considered good, everyone gets a good deal for their business, including Wurth.

I've never used their fixings etc, but have used a lot of their lubricants and cleaning products, bloody good stuff too they are.

 

[Dodge]

After many years of using Winzer Wurth I got totally fed up with the pricing attitute.

One every occasion when the rep called I would get him to physically write the price of the items ordered on the order form filled in, of which I had a copy. When the invoice then arrived it was always about 30% higher than the committed prices.

I refused to pay the extra as committed prices were agreed and on each and every occasion they insisted I paid the full amount and that I would then get issued with a credit note for the difference, on the first and second occasion I did this but the credit notes took months to materialise. I therefore sent them cheques for the agreed sum, not the invoice amount and they had the cheek to start sending "Red" overdue and debt company threats for the sums that were not due.

To be honest it was just an attempt to rip people off - I will never be using them again unless they sort their pricing and give me a catalogue with prices clearly evident!

 

[ColeyS1]

We were owed a credit note for months and my workmate rang up several times using the softly softly approach. I got fed up hearing about the credit note we were owed in the end and gave the rep an ear full. We got our credit note and the next time the rep came in, told them not to bother anymore. It was costing us more in chasing credit notes then it was wurth :lol:
At the time we wondered how we'd manage- couple years on and just fine !
When we order now we know exactly what things are gonna cost and everything we use to rely on we can find elsewhere and cheaper !

 

[tomatwark]

I use Hafele a lot

The min order came back down to £25 last year £ 50 was a real pain.

I see my Hafele rep every 6-8 weeks but is always at the end of the phone when I need him to sort something out or give me a better price.

Also he will set a price on something I use all the time, so that when I order on line it comes up on the website.

Winzer Wurth reps get told where to go if they come in here as I have had exactly the same problem as Dodge when I have dealt with them.

Wurth like to deal with large companies which have accounts department, so the invoices are not always checked as carefully as by a one man band, this way they can slip an extra 30% or so on and most of the time get away with it.

Tom

 

[Bradshaw Joinery]

I 'apparantley' get upto 70% discount on screws, TBH i cant buy them cheaper elsewhere, and there great!, heads are softer metal than others, but i was told they have a softer core, which allows the screw to bend/flex a little more instead of breaking.... never broken one, or had a failure, the boxes are neat too.

bought a huge box of stretcher plates for 500 iirc for £30 which i use all the time....

But some things are very expensive, look for a minimm 50% discount off everything, and like said, check the bill.....I usually order through email or txt, getting prices confirmed.