Or we could all vote for the Green Party! I know I will...
Wild fires in BC Canada.
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John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
A) I don't think electrolysis is the only way to produce hydrogen, but B) even if it was, burning hydrogen in the presence of oxygen produces water.
If you are talking about direct use of hydrogen in an ICE, then I agree, more trouble than its worth. One of the biggest problems being the production of some nasty emissions if you burn it at normal fuel air mixtures. This can be overcome, but only at the expense of a big reduction in power. Hydrogen fuel cells are a different matter entirely. For me these seem a far better bet in the long term than battery EV. Less environmentally damaging to produce, and no requirement for chargers everywhere with all the cost and upheaval they will entail. But you are right, for it to be viable we need to either find a more efficient way of producing it, or be able to generate electricity cheaply enough that current technologies become competitive. We are some way from either. But what is the alternative for long haul transport, and in particular air travel? Even those who don't believe in the need to reduce our use of fossil fuels due climate change, must recognise that they are a finite resource. So if we want to keep on flying, transporting goods by air and sea etc we need to get our finger out and start developing some alternatives.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
@12:41 part hedge delivery for stiggyturnalot.
Unfortunately most of the air is actually Nitrogen, and burning Hydrogen in that produces NOx. So a Hydrogen fuelled ICE is not classed as a zero emission vehicle. It doesn't produce carbon related emissions, so no CO2 for example, but does produce other nasties. These can be reduced to insignificant levels by altering the mixture but the engine then produces much less power.
I think the main reason for interest in Hydrogen fuelled ICE is simply that they can be produced in existing facilities. A regular ICE can be 're designed to run on Hydrogen comparatively easily. Not a new idea, they have been around almost as long as the engine itself.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Makes sense - batteries no good for long distance or HGV. If we have an electric future it'll be rail, tram, trolley, just like the old days!
For a hydrogen fuel cell you need platinum for the catalyst (unless there is an alternative). Most of it is found in South Africa, not the most stable country. So if you consider it’s extremely rare, gold is far more common and that lithium is also mined in Africa, the world would be almost entirely beholden to Africa, probably one of the most unstable continents with a population that’s exploding. Equally the entire energy storage and release system would be dependant on rare earth metals…….not a really sustainable long term solution.
I May be wrong but I can’t see any western government wanting to hitch its transport system to that scenario. It’s far too risky. So the only alternative is ICE which was the basis for my earlier comments.
I May be wrong but I can’t see any western government wanting to hitch its transport system to that scenario. It’s far too risky. So the only alternative is ICE which was the basis for my earlier comments.
Probably the most common way of producing hydrogen is the steam Methane reforming method. This uses Natural Gas (Oh, back to gas again!) to create Carbon Monoxide and hydrogen. The CO is then reacted with water to produce (I just love this bit) Carbon Dioxide and a bit more H2. So the clean green hydrogen isn’t that environmentally friendly after all! It’s a joke, as they don’t like to inform you of the full cycle. All you see is a nice big truck using Hydrogen fuel cell producing water as a byproduct. Marvellous…..apart from the CO2, Natural gas and Platinum needed to get you there. But you don’t see that in the hype.
The chemical reactions are
Steam-methane reforming reaction
CH4 + H2O (+ heat) → CO + 3H2
Water-gas shift reaction
CO + H2O → CO2 + H2 (+ small amount of heat)
The chemical reactions are
Steam-methane reforming reaction
CH4 + H2O (+ heat) → CO + 3H2
Water-gas shift reaction
CO + H2O → CO2 + H2 (+ small amount of heat)
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
I'm not advocating hydrogen fuelled vehicles, just querying Deema's concern re. hydrogen manufacture depleting our water supply.
Have you read their policies? If anyone takes the time to read the policies and the world they would like to bring about I cannot believe anyone with an ounce of common sense or self preservation would vote for them unless they are deluded…..or from the far left vegan open border philosophy.
https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/our-core-values/
Thanks for the link, I just read them for the first time. They seem perfectly reasonable to me, which ones do you take issue with and why?
Well, which do you think are sensible? No more recreational fishing, no more meat or fish to eat, no more borders, everybody is welcome to the UK and you get a fee house, enough money to live a good life for free, just pitch up. Return to Rotational farming of crops…..we can’t feed the country with the industrial farming we use today. Do I need to go on? Those were some of the numerous vote winning policies that are completely bonkers, unaffordable and would literally destroy the UK.
I don't think there is any fear of that, but I agree with him that really the only clean way of producing the hydrogen in the first place is using electricity to split water. Problem being you need any awful lot of electricity, so until we can find cheaper, and green, ways to generate that power hydrogen will remain uncompetitive in price compared to fossil fuels, and have little whole cycle benefit environmentally either. Not sure if the exact figures but it is offset slightly by being more efficient. Somebody posted a video on here a while ago with a lady claiming that fuel running costs for a fuel cell vehicle were much the same as a conventional ICE vehicle running on petrol, I think that's probably a bit of a stretch, although might be plausible in the future if it were taken up on a larger scale. The fuel cell technology is also years old, and may well be capable of improvement, or less dependence on exotic materials. Little incentive in the past to develop.it further as it has largely been used in fairly niche applications where the scale is too small to merit the investment.
Jacob has all the answers to everything, why don't we all vote for him?
He'd certainly be able to give everyone else some tips on how to sharpen up their acts
Thanks for posting the core values, saved me the effort and yes, I'm a fully paid up member. There are one or two of their policies I don't agree with -I think meat eating in moderation is OK for example, but if you can say that you agree with all the policies put forward by your chosen party, then you're a rare (or blinkered) man, especially when those policies seem to change on an almost daily basis..
Having read a lot of your posts on this subject, it seems that you're terrified of the country being brought to Armageddon by anything you don't personally agree with. What is certain is that we cannot continue on the current course - another few decades of this and we'll all be well and truly bu66ered.
Now, which policies do you support? I don’t intend this to be rude, but do you understand the implications of the policies you support? And indeed the policies you don’t?
I like the medical oath, Primum non nocere, that drives my decisions. First, do no harm.
Well to be honest, there's not a lot there that doesn't make sense. We've spent the last god knows how many centuries perfecting the art of sh1tt1ing on our own doorstep, to the point where we've perfected the technique and I repeat, if we carry on down this road we are not going to get very much farther.
I live about 2 miles from where I grew up and I see every day, all around me the damage that has been wrought by agriculture, just as one example - and that is a part of the country that isn't very intensive. When I was a child, the song of the summer was the cuckoo - I honestly cannot remember the last time I heard one. In the winter we'd get huge flocks of lapwing - these days, if we see a couple of them we run to get the binoculars. A light left on at night would soon be swarming with moths, but not any more, with a paltry showing of just a few.
The ground we own has had not artificial inputs for as long as anyone can recall and there are over 60 species of flowering plant, not including the trees on the hedges, as well as more species of fungi than I know how to identify. The fields all around, although they look green and healthy are virtual monocultures, sprayed with broadleaved weedkillers and dosed with artificial fertiliser on a regular basis and meanwhile all the run-off from the fields is poisoning the rivers and our water supply. Huge crops of forage are taken, several times a year to feed dairy cows that are lucky to live past 7 years old, when the natural lifespan of a cow is closer to 20. I know animals and I can spot when an animal is under stress. I've been in factory farms, I've even lived on one and I can tell you that the price of a cheap chicken is a lot of suffering, with the same being true of cheap animal protein of any sort. I'm not asking for an end to meat, dairy, eggs, but we do need to wake up to the cost of such things and be prepared to pay for it. In any case, less of all of those in our diet would lead to a healthier population and take a lot of strain off the NHS.
Because of the restricted diet and the huge demands placed on the cows by the dairy industry, they have a large incidence of mastitis and are frequently on antibiotics. Those antibiotics get into our food chain and help populations of bacteria acquire immunity. You cannot be unaware of the looming problem of antibiotic resistance we're facing and that is also fuelled by the factory farming of pigs, fish, chickens, turkeys, etc., etc.
You're worried about the consequences of change? Change from this is the only thing that may - may - save us. And if you don't care about the future of humanity, what about the future of the planet?
You say do no harm, what the hell do your think we're doing right now?
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
He stood for election not long ago. Several people voted for him.
@Cobbs I do, the Green policies on food production would lead to mass starvation. Thats would not may. You can wave goodbye to your animals and control over your land under their policies. Smacks of Russias collectivisation of farms to me, and that went really well. So, your voting for a party that wishes to end your (and I mean it sincerely) delightful lifestyle? That’s turkeys voting for Xmad!
I’m not keen on a policies that wants to limit child birth, smells of the one child policy in China that is a catastrophe. I try to look at things from a perspective of what’s good for the masses not just myself. I think policies of no borders and the huge benefits they promise to all who come to the UK will see every third world citizen up sticks and move here. Very laudable I’m sure, but it’s impossible to house and feed them even if we build on every square inch of land we have.
But we fortunately live in a society that allows us the freedom to think and vote as our convictions drive us.
I’m not keen on a policies that wants to limit child birth, smells of the one child policy in China that is a catastrophe. I try to look at things from a perspective of what’s good for the masses not just myself. I think policies of no borders and the huge benefits they promise to all who come to the UK will see every third world citizen up sticks and move here. Very laudable I’m sure, but it’s impossible to house and feed them even if we build on every square inch of land we have.
But we fortunately live in a society that allows us the freedom to think and vote as our convictions drive us.
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