Why use farrow and ball paint

[ColeyS1]

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[Woodfinish Man]

That's good to know, my concern still remains with the customer asking for a matching piece of furniture 3 years down the line. Is the scanning and mixing technology there to be able to order 'the same' but years apart?


Well there may be a very slight difference but it will be negligible. In my opinion there's no doubt you should be trying tinted lacquers instead of paints....the difference in durability is significant. Light Green Paint company is another range that can be made in these lacquers!

 

[ColeyS1]

At the risk of sounding thick ..... whats a tinted lacquer ? What would be the full process to finish mdf or tulip wood for example ?

I've just gone into homebase and picked up these

Every single dulux colour chart they had on the shelf I was pointed to the relevant aisle and the shop assistant came back with his other workmate to help me pick them all from the shelf - A++ to them for being super helpful whilst I continued to slag off farrow and ball which they also sell :roll: The plan is to just compare it to the likes of f&b, crown, laura Ashley etc.
Workshops out of bounds for the weekend as any dust will settle and stick to the surface. Will be glad when they get delivered Monday !

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[Woodfinish Man]

A tinted lacquer is basically a hard paint, especially so if a two pack Acid Catalyst Lacquer is used. These products are very popular amongst the shopfitting and furniture manufacturing sector as they are very durable, easy to apply (by spray) and come in a range of different sheen levels.

The basic application onto MDF would be:

One sprayed application of PC1 White MDF Primer followed by one or two coats of Precatalysed Promatch (can be tinted to over 20,000 shades!). Each coat is touch dry after 20 mins and recoating can take place after 60 minutes.

The AC system is applied in a similar way except that it comes with a catalyst where there is a 9:1 mix ratio with the lacquer. AC2 in particular meets BS 6250 severe use specification.

 

[ColeyS1]

The thing with this job, was the customer quite liked seeing subtle brush strokes as all the window shutters were hand painted.
I just nipped into Brewers and was very unimpressed to say the least. I was gonna bite the bullet and get the same F&B raddichio mixed in a paint they'd recommend -
"We can't do that, its their colour" what he did say was he could mix it to the nearest dulux colour.
So this seems like the only readily available option ?

Am I really limited to just the dulux colours found on the charts. Does the scanner just point to the closet dulux one available, is there no way that another manufacturers paint can be replicated exactly ? He also showed a farrow and ball paint sample of the same colour I've been using. It looks nothing like the finish I could get so wonder if they have dramatically altered the formula since the sample board was made.

Im gonna stick to veneered mdf or solid wood things from now on

Coley


-secretly going to b and q to see what the dulux raddichio turns out like :evil:

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[Drudgeon]

The Farrow & Ball colours are in a different league, and (in my experience) cannot be matched from Dulux, I know that Leyland, and also Morrells have the F&B colours programmed into their mixers to re-produce the colours, but they are never 100% the same, I have one more than one occasion witnessed an interior designer walk into a job and instantly recognise items that have been "matched" to F&B rather than using the actual paint.

I preersonally cannot get on with the new water based eggshell, I have done two projects in the last month finished by hand with F&B Estate Eggshell, one was undercoated with Morrells 2k and one with Morrells WB primer, neither would dry properly, no matter the environment/temps. :?

 

[scholar]

To be fair to F&B, they are quite explicit in their instructions that F&B Estate Eggshell must be applied to a base of the requisite F&B primer - I have no idea why this makes such a difference as I am not a chemist, but evidently it does.

Having read a lot of the complaints, as far as I can tell, they all report the experience of applying F&B Estate eggshell to a third party primer/undercoat - it is an understandable concern for professionals who need to be able to get their topcoat(s) on without delay, and having to apply another primer is extra work and time. I have not had problems when following the instructions - usually a base coat of Zinsser BIN or 1-2-3 followed by the F&B primer/undercoat, followed by the topcoat(s). Seems to work fine, whether hand painted or sprayed. The Zinsser primer would not be necessary for some things, but it does cover and fill very well.

I too find that colour matched paint (I use Morells who are good) does not come out quite the same - they will look the same side by side, but the overall effect is different - F&B would I think say that it is due to the quantity of pigment in their paints which gives them a depth of colour that is not so easily matched - again, I am no expert, but the consensus is that the real thing is easily distinguishable from a colour matched alternative. Some shades seem to match better than others.

Of course F&B are not the only mfr of nice paint Little Greene is a good alternative, just different colours; it does not seem to have the primer incompatibility of the F&B, again, don't know why..

Cheers

 

[RogerS]

You still get problems applying it over their primer. I had some Douglas Fir (why does anyone use this wood. It is ghastly stuff to use. Only got it as it was cheap at auction and I'd not used it before. Never again). I digress. My fault originally. Applied F&B external primer and got bleed through from the DF. Reading their leaflet that primer is not suitable for oily woods like DF. Recommended solution was to wire wool it all off which i did. Then apply their stain block. Then re-apply their primer undercoat...two coats IIRC followed by the top coat of eggshell. Still got bleed through.

Zinser BIN'd it. Job done. Will never use F&B again.

 

[mind_the_goat]

There's a lot more to the appearance of a finish than just the mix of pigment. Think of car paint that can have any number of other products added to give a different result, It's the additional fillers that can give paint it's 'trade mark' appearance by scattering the light in different ways and no colour match machine will work that out. It will be the effect of the fillers on the colour perceived by the eye that results in the 'wrong' colour mix when people try to match a certain finish. Eyes don't perceive absolute colour and machines have difficulty matching what we see. Even 2 samples that look the same under one light source may look completely different under another.

 

[blackrodd]

I don't know if this is any use but a company near me who use pine and come from Exmoor advertise their finish as i coat of F&B eggshell oil and two coats of clear to finish, sprayed i should imagine.
Regards Rodders

 

[bugbear]

Even two samples that look the same under one light source may look completely different under another.

It's called metamerism

BugBear (who does colour printing technology)

 

[ColeyS1]

Bookcases delivered today and customer very happy

I took the farrow and ball sample colour in and had some paint scanned and mixed with dulux. 1 coat of waterbased quick dry, and one of oil based dulux eggshell and it covered pretty good ! Rubbed down the next day with 400 grit, no sticky cloggyuppy mess and a second topcoat and all was done. The colour dulux matched it to was 'lacca' now in my opinion the paint they mixed looked a darn good match to the little colour sample from the farrow and ball brochure..........the thing is, there paint doesn't seem to match there own colour brochure ! I wasn't sure if I was imagining it so took a sample of proper wood raddichio paint to be scanned- if everything was consistent it should have came up with the same 'lacca' dulux offering - it didn't ! It then offered 3 dulux alternatives. I finally got her to rescan the little paper farrow and ball sample and it still came back with ' lacca' thats evidence enough for me to say the colour you end up with might not be the same as the one on the card.

The block of wood near the bottom is the f & b paint- the small square im holding is the f&b sample, and the top board is the dulux paint that was matched to the sample square.
This day in age when monitors and printers can be callibrated together, I find it fairly poor that something so important as buying paint should be such hard work.

So if I get a customer in future who asks for farrow and ball, I'll buy the smallest tin of there paint, paint it on some wood, then get it scanned. I'll admit the finish won't be quite the same but altleast it will dry properly with minimum of fuss and will no doubt be much more durable.
If we get pushed for a more authentic heritage paint I'll try anything else but not farrow and ball again- it was hassle from start to finish.
Coley
Edit: Not sure if it's mentioned in any of my previous posts but I did use the recommended f&b primer so shouldn't have been any compatibility issues

 

[bugbear]

But that means, if a customer chooses a color from the F&B brochure AND you use "genuine" F&B paint, the customer won't get the colour they've chosen!

So...

Should you match the Dulux to the brochure (from which the customer made his/her selection) or to the paint (which is the "real thing", but the customer has never seen)?

BugBear

 

[ColeyS1]

Guess it'll have to be explained. I'll do a neater sample of the colours so they can see the difference themselves. It'd be sooooooooooo much easier if the farrow and ball sample matched there paint, and the bloody stuff dried !!!! :roll: :lol:

Just spotted my red bristled dusting brush. Anyone would think I used it to paint them, not for dusting off after 2-3 days between coats

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[mind_the_goat]

"metamerism"

I bet it's rare that you get to slip that word into a conversation

 

[Drudgeon]

But i also bet that if you got the Dulux colour swab for the colour you eventually used, that it probably wouldn't be an exact match to the end product either, it really is very frustrating trying to get colours right.

At the end of the day, if you explain everything to the customer from day1, then they cannot claim to not have what they asked for, the other issue is whether or not the customer would have to pay a slightly higher cost for using actual F&B rather than a colour match in Dulux/Leyland etc to take into account the problem encountered in using F&B, but that will be down to personal choice.

F&B colours really are stunning, and they really do have an edge that your Dulux/Leyland etc trade paints just do not have, I'm lead to believe that this is down to them using better quality ingredients in the paint.

Whatever it may be, let's just hope that F&B develop the product into a more useable paint that we can all use again without the drying issues, unfortunately I don't think you will ever get a WB (hand applied) finish that matches an oil based finish, but we need to get used to it because it is the way of the future.

 

[Drudgeon]

But i also bet that if you got the Dulux colour swab for the colour you eventually used, that it probably wouldn't be an exact match to the end product either, it really is very frustrating trying to get colours right.

At the end of the day, if you explain everything to the customer from day1, then they cannot claim to not have what they asked for, the other issue is whether or not the customer would have to pay a slightly higher cost for using actual F&B rather than a colour match in Dulux/Leyland etc to take into account the problem encountered in using F&B, but that will be down to personal choice.

F&B colours really are stunning, and they really do have an edge that your Dulux/Leyland etc trade paints just do not have, I'm lead to believe that this is down to them using better quality ingredients in the paint.

Whatever it may be, let's just hope that F&B develop the product into a more useable paint that we can all use again without the drying issues, unfortunately I don't think you will ever get a WB (hand applied) finish that matches an oil based finish, but we need to get used to it because it is the way of the future.

 

[Peter Sefton]

The painter completed the two cabinets I was making mid last week, i fitted them up on friday ready for Sarah to show them off to her friends on Saturday. When the grand unveiling happened the bloody doors stuck! F&B struck again - the painted doors had glued themselves to the never drying door stops. i now understand what the abbreviation F&B stand for :!:

 

[tekno.mage]

"metamerism"

I bet it's rare that you get to slip that word into a conversation

Unless you are talking about matching colours Having said that, the last time I used metamerism in a conversation with a customer, she had to ask me what it meant.