Why is this dangerous kit being advertised on here?

[TRITON]

If he was a pro then the machine being industrial surely would have a deadmans handle so the operator has to be at the controls and not the other end

Theresa yt vid of a a pro one in action, and you can see its got the controls, but from the position of his hands theres no deadmans handle or lever or such. So I think once you switch these bu66ers on, its on.
Vid is called 'stump humper stump grinder'

 

[KeenToLearn]

Given that anyone using a table saw is going to be a woodworker, I am gobsmacked they actually buy push sticks etc rather than making their own as they are so simple!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It doesn't surprise me, people buy bench hooks.

 

[Chris Harris]

I agree with the examples you use, but the Act does apply to some instances outside the workplace. The (often missed) important word is etc. The full name of the Act is; The Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 .

 

[naughtymoose]

I think it a little unfair to pillory Peter Sefton for advertising an item that doesn't comply with standards set out in the HASAW Act. Where in the advert does it mention employers, employees, or the workplace?

Whilst for many people, woodwork is a paid job, for many, it isn't. If you are in a place of work, or carrying out an activity as part of work in an area that would not normally be your place of employment (still a place of work) then YOU should act responsibly. Your employer also has a resposnibility to ensure this, and may do so by providing you with a manual (for example) that tells you how to carry out the activity.

The ACT applies to the workplace, which is where the Health and Safety Executive can enforce various Statutory Instruments. It does NOT apply if you are a hobbyist in a shed at home, using your table saw on Christmas Day, dressed in flip-flops and underpants, wearing no PPE, and using a jewel-encrusted bamboo pushstick to push a bit of something against a dado blade that you have obtained and fitted to your saw.

However, if, in a place of work (remember, that COULD actually be YOUR shed, if you are a sole trader, for instance) you use a jewel-encrusted bamboo pushstick and an accident ensues... well, you would be breaking the law (the ACT) as the HSE would prosecute (maybe) by using one of the many STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS available to them, or Approved Codes of Practice (ACOPs). They could also prosecute by using the Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations, because YOU hadn't provided the user with appropriate safety equipment (an appropriate pushstick, as detailed in https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l114.pdf.

Remember, YOUR safety is ultimately YOUR reponsibility. Flip-flops are dangerous when worn in inapropriate locations!

 

[Jacob]

I think it a little unfair to pillory Peter Sefton for advertising an item that doesn't comply with standards set out in the HASAW Act. Where in the advert does it mention employers, employees, or the workplace?

The regs appear to be general recommendations rather than specifications, on the basis that any gadget is better than non.
Hence you don't get prosecuted for using the wrong gadget as far as I can see.

 

[worn thumbs]

I admit to not watching the video that the appalling still comes from.That design of push stick has clearly originated from the "land of the free"-as in free to ignore sensible safety levels.If you will follow the path of removing crown guards there is a pretty good chance that at some point you will have a workpiece nip on the saw,we have riving knives to help us.Some of their commentators describe the better saws as having riving knives and splitters which is puzzling because one decent riving knife is sufficient.Which makes no difference if your saw has neither and the wood grabs,because the tendency is for the piece at the back of the saw to lift and one of those dogleg shaped things will resist the lifting-a bit.It will also allow you to run your hands rather close to an un-guarded blade and have your baggy sleeves grabbed.

I'm not sure how useful featherboards are in many situations as we may find ourselves ripping multiple strips from the same stock and the featherboard will need to be re-set for each one.Its different if we have a pile of strips to reduce in width.

Most of us on this site will know better but those whose only "training" comes from youtube will have seen lots of dodgy practice and may believe it to be normal.A simple push stick and using guards that the machine came with will keep people safer,no doubt about it,the question is really how do we get the message across to those who need to know?

 

[Jacob]

I admit to not watching the video that the appalling still comes from.That design of push stick has clearly originated from the "land of the free"-as in free to ignore sensible safety levels.If you will follow the path of removing crown guards there is a pretty good chance that at some point you will have a workpiece nip on the saw,we have riving knives to help us.Some of their commentators describe the better saws as having riving knives and splitters which is puzzling because one decent riving knife is sufficient.Which makes no difference if your saw has neither and the wood grabs,because the tendency is for the piece at the back of the saw to lift and one of those dogleg shaped things will resist the lifting-a bit.It will also allow you to run your hands rather close to an un-guarded blade and have your baggy sleeves grabbed.

I'm not sure how useful featherboards are in many situations as we may find ourselves ripping multiple strips from the same stock and the featherboard will need to be re-set for each one.Its different if we have a pile of strips to reduce in width.

Most of us on this site will know better but those whose only "training" comes from youtube will have seen lots of dodgy practice and may believe it to be normal.A simple push stick and using guards that the machine came with will keep people safer,no doubt about it,the question is really how do we get the message across to those who need to know?

The machine suppliers are catching up: Push Sticks | Daltons Wadkin
More or less identical to the Axminster shape.
Mine originally came with an SCM machine and was similar shape.
It's as though safety is a new idea!
Maybe a new "standard" design is emerging?

 

[worn thumbs]

I would have serious doubts about any woodworker who needed to buy a pushstick like that.Glad he appreciated the need for one but needing to buy a shaped piece of wood?

 

[Jacob]

I would have serious doubts about any woodworker who needed to buy a pushstick like that.Glad he appreciated the need for one but needing to buy a shaped piece of wood?

Beech is a bit extravagant! When my first plastic one was past it I bought an Axminster one just to copy the pattern in mdf or ply scraps.

 

[Cabinetman]

@naughtymoose
I think it a little unfair to pillory Peter Sefton for advertising an item that doesn't comply with standards set out in the HASAW Act.
Sorry but I think you’re missing the point, it’s not whether it complies or not, it’s the fact that what he is promoting is downright dangerous, promoted as being safety equipment to inexperienced members on here who could have life changing injuries as a result of using the garbage.
Ian

 

[Spectric]

In the workplace both the employer and employee are equally responsible for safety, the employer provides a safe working enviroment and ensures all machinery complies with the PUWER act whilst the employee is trained in the use of such machinery and adopts safe working practices. This should mean that in a working enviroment the company should not be purchasing unsafe equipment and the employee should refuse to use unsafe equipment and report any issues regarding safety. This all goes out the window in many cases when along comes Joe Blogs, there are some regulations enforced by trading standards for electrical standards, kids toys and fake goods but unfortunately it is assumed Joe Blogs is old enough and sensible enough to be safe in his own workshop and not buy or use tools that he sees unsafe.

In the case of the Woodworkers workshop who do give really good customer service and is run by a very knowledgeable experienced woodworker who has taught woodworking for years then I do wonder what advice would be given if you phoned them and asked about that pushstick, maybe the answer would be " Why not just make one" and I dare say @Peter Sefton will have something to add.

 

[Cabinetman]

I hadn’t realised he was a member, I am interested to hear what he will say.
Ian

 

[Peter Sefton]

Just had a scan read over this thread and I do take various points on board which I will address with our team once they return from their Christmas holidays. Some images could lead to poor practises so I will review them again, the videos are on YouTube and are for public consumption and views on YouTube far outstrip the machine safety videos I have personally made.

In the UK it is recommended that a push stick of 450mm long is used (the only one that I have seen that long is our Bow Products PushPRO Push Stick) All the ones I have ever bought or have been supplied with machines are shorter than the regulation. Also all guards should be used inline with the regulations.

https://woodworkersworkshop.co.uk/bow-products-pushpro-push-stick/
HSE guidance cannot cover all the potential uses of a saw bench or different types and sizes. My takeaway from HSE guidance is when cutting anything less than 150mm wide a push stick should be used for the last 300mm of the cut in a commercial workshop. If this guidance is followed on smaller tables saws where the infeed to the saw blade is less than 300mm the timber pivots, lifts up and leads to kickback, in this circumstance a push stick is dangerous. When the material is wider than 150mm, push sticks do not have to be used if your hand is at least 150mm left or right of the saw blade. So using any other piece of equipment that assists the user is allowed in these circumstances or none at all.

I am very happy and confident using push sticks but for newbies they can be like using chopsticks! The American style push blocks and push sticks are more natural shapes with handles and easier to use for inexperienced woodworkers. They also are much safer those who suffer from arthritis or work in colder workshops. For me anything that gets your hands away from the blade is an improvement and we can never police what individuals do at home.

For those working commercially they need to work within the regulations set out in their native country, DIYers are left to fend for themselves. I feel the individuals should seek professional health and safety training, but that fact is that very few do. In a perfect world, colleges would still be training wood machinists, they would filter good practise into industry and DIYers would have courses available to teach them safe working methods. But the reality is very few craftsman are being formally trained and anyone can buy a machine online to be delivered to home and turned on with no prior experience or understanding of the dangers.

The HSE information below is for table saws.

Use of a push-stick A push-stick should always be used when making any cut less than 300 mm in length or when feeding the last 300 mm of a longer cut. Push-sticks should be at least 450 mm long with a ‘bird’s mouth’ (see Figure 3). The leading hand should never be closer than is necessary to the front of the saw and hands should never be in line with the saw blade. A push-stick should always be used to remove the cut piece from between the saw blade and fence, unless the width of the cut piece exceeds 150 mm​

We used to be the sole dealers for a brand which manufacture safety kit. I decided to only supply kit I felt complied with my reading of the regulations and use images and appropriate videos . My staff would then spend time explaining to customers why we didn’t carry the complete range. Ultimately the brand removed us as their sole supplier and now sell via multiple channels with all images and videos and no safety warnings! You just can’t win.

We also sell to over 220 countries and we cannot police the regulations of each territory. On our website we do usually have this within the description.

Important Notice: Use these products to improve your safety when machining, they should complement your machine guards not replace them; for a safe and happy life of woodworking. All relevant health and safety practices should be used which are applicable to your country of residence.

We are going to add this Notice, to all appropriate products that we sell now after realising some have been uploaded without it.

I have another couple of thoughts.

Maybe these machines should not be available to purchase unless you have received training? Afterall it’s the machine that’s dangerous not the style of push stick.

Maybe home users should comply to all the regulations, inspections and compliance that commercial workshop do?

I will leave my comments there, I am sure this thread will run for quite some time......

Cheers

Peter

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Well my request for elaboration certainly stired some feathers!
No to stir a few more.
the GRR-RIPPER from Microjig is, in its correct usage, an excellent workpiece pusher on a table saw, but with the saw blade with the correct protrusion.

The picture of the Milescraft video on the PushStick is a demonstration of a bad, possibly dangerous use case. That PushStick on a table saw is probably bad for most use cases.

The Grabber is good for a few limited use cases on a table saw and for most on a planer

 

[Jacob]

..........

Use of a push-stick A push-stick should always be used when making any cut less than 300 mm in length or when feeding the last 300 mm of a longer cut. Push-sticks should be at least 450 mm long with a ‘bird’s mouth’ (see Figure 3). The leading hand should never be closer than is necessary to the front of the saw and hands should never be in line with the saw blade. A push-stick should always be used to remove the cut piece from between the saw blade and fence, unless the width of the cut piece exceeds 150 mm​

.....

Note the "should", which means it is advisory and not compulsory, not a "must".
This means you could be blamed if you don't follow the advice and an accident occurs to one of your employees, but it is not an obligation to follow specific details such as 450mm length.
It's getting there, but not good enough in my opinion. Two push sticks should be tops and their fig 3 design is very poor.
Begs the question - should HSE get the blame if an accident occurs with somebody using just one inadequate push stick when two would have averted it - as with the OP in that earlier thread?

 

[Richard_C]

One small step would be to have that advert removed, haven’t heard from the mods

I think that sets a dangerous precedent. As a site user and potential customer for advertisers, I might infer that any advertised item that hasn't been removed is by default "safe" otherwise it wouldn't be allowed.

Would you be a site owner or a moderator and take on that responsibility? Yes to removing known illegal or known fraudulent content, but caveat emptor should continue to apply to other things.

 

[Cabinetman]

I take your point Richard, but I don’t regret starting the thread. We all know it’s a battle we can’t win against YouTube bad practice and manufacturers pushing dangerous products.
This will only get worse until we end up like the states where there are 10 amputations of fingers and bits of hand from table saws every day and this doesn’t include all the horrendous cuts and slices that don’t result in amputation.
Ian

 

[Bingy man]

I've a bit of an update on some info I put in a post. It was about a friend of my nephews who lost a lower leg with an industrial tree surgeons wood/branch chipper.

Round at Sis's for Xmas, I got the full story off the nephews. It wasn't a wood chipper, because from the story and them not knowing the difference between the chipper and what the machine actually was, in this case it was in fact a stump grinder and not a wood chipper., thats where the confusion arose.
They had a little vid of how a tree grinder works and via YT one doing it's stuff I can understand now how it caught his leg and it wasnt as I thought involving lifting your leg into the hopper and pushing at the blockage. My misinterpretation.

So that clears that. It wasnt a chipper, it was a stump grinder

They then decided to show me the pics of what happens if a fully speeding stump grinder that looks to be doing 5000rpm and is in effect a very big dado cutter, you can imagine whats going to happen if it gets a hold of the bottom of your trouser leg.

They had pics of that too as we say in Glasgow, The Full Bhoona

As a ex butcher I would say that was mincemeat and a lot of it. Im surprised they saved any of his leg. Looked like the type of injury normally accompanying standing on an IED

We post pics of a cut with a few stitches to ones of partly missing fingers, but this would have had dear Adam looking for something to throw up in. Calf muscle destroyed, upper thigh not completely destroyed but what could best be described as a deep furrow running up it 4"+ wide. Some horrendous injuries.
This is just to clarify, because I made light of it but the injury was such that wasnt fair.

So have a 'lets be careful in the year to come' everybody new year

Are talking about one of these machines . I’ve hired one several times over the last year or two to remove anything from small tree stumps to huge 36/48 “ beasts . I can understand the need to remove ( bricks , concrete , steel etc ) but simply can’t fathom why anyone would want to get anywhere near that blade . Our procedure was to drop the revs to minimum and swing the machine away from the cut zone , once the rock etc was removed and cleared then my mate would remove himself from the area and the machine would be repositioned and continue with the stump . Re chainsaw trousers - while I’m more than confident in them when using my chainsaws to prevent serious injury from a very fast and sharp chain of teeth I don’t think it would make any difference to this machine . It does have a large ,heavy , steel disc but it has what I can only describe as two bolts for teeth top and bottom of the disc and by design the fibres in class 1 or 2 chainsaw trousers would not stop it spinning due to the horsepower of the stump grinder . Also this machine does not drive itself and has to be manually pulled or dragged into or out of position.

It also by nature of its design tend to dig itself in as it throws the waste underneath the machine body meaning after so long you have to drag it out of position and then rake out all the crud it produces ..

 

[Ttrees]

I could get the nephew to send us a pic could be posted up, and I dont think the chap minds a pic of his mangled leg being shown publicly, but this is real horror show stuff and rated 12+

FTFY Triton.

Some great points mentioned in this thread.
What comes as a surprise to me is the feeling of acceptance of failure is OK
in regards to not being able police dangerous practices or kit.

The majority of folks posting or visiting here, well were likely all getting a lil gray haired now,
so it's up to us to ride this particular wave of ignorance, and not call it a day and head back on land for an ice cream.
as there's newcomers out there who are in all sorts of depths, so it's up to us to try advise as best we can.

Hope that's enough waffling for ye to stomach!
and to those who've got some philosophical answers in regards to "the machine"
perhaps have made their mind up already, and maybe that's where the problem lies....

The machine in question not infact having a circular saw blade, but a hard disc instead!
So my question to those is, which gets the message across better?

The constant marketing machine, from unscrupulous conglomerates or dealers who can bend the likes of Peter's principals, as he's likely between a rock and a hard place here.
(coz the folks who actually make these things, couldn't give a hoot what length they are.)

Or the new tablesaw guru, who's got serious influence and finances to compile the best
series of tablesaw safety videos ever made.


Someone like Mike Farrington for instance, but perhaps from this side of the foam?
I could think of one or two folks here who might be able to get the job done,
which is no easy feat TBH
Someone who isn't financially motivated but obliged instead..

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to suggest a trustworthy youtuber who's covered it all
as there's a huge gap and a disservice of sorts from the HSE.
Who's getting the brown envelopes there?