Which grade of Diamond plate for final honing

[J_SAMa]

By far your easiest and less costly introduction to the whole .x-micron superfine media love-fest will be high grit sandpapers or lapping films on glass.

@CStanford - I'll see your 3m 3000 paper and raise you; GLAR 5000

We can always move to optical polishing compounds (you see, this stuff never ends really):

http://www.harricksci.com/ftir/accessor ... ishing-Kit

Then there is 'Monkey Jam' Pinewood Derby axle polish with a particle grit size of LESS THAN .05 microns (.05!):

http://www.derbymonkeygarage.com/axle-t ... Ogod30YArg

Note that green compound is around .5 micron, not .05 as is the Monkey Jam. See: http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Product/ ... OgodeRoA3A

And then there are the lapidary polishes too fine and numerous to mention.

I mean, why not? If we should move from a Black Arky to a waterstone then why stop at a waterstone? And I'm sure there are other industrial and aerospace polishes even finer than those above. It becomes arbitrary, almost, one's stopping point. The edges got sharp at the India/Black Ark/Strop stage, at some point it's just a psychological exercise of feeling as if one isn't leaving one mote on the table. An obsession. And a ridiculous one at that.

I think someone needs to do a SCIENTIFIC experiment on the properties of edges polished to different grits... Or has that already been done?
And what are those 0.05 micron grits made of anyway?

 

[Trafalgar]

Scientific? Who needs scientific? Somebody comes out with the next X-finer stone, labels it "Japanese," and the things fly off dealers' shelves. The only thing these units have in common with REAL Japanese stones (the ones that come out of the ground in Japan) is that the recommended lubricant, if you will, is water. Thank God nobody came out with fake Arkansas stones. When somebody mentions these they are talking about the rocks that come from Arkansas. What refreshing and straightforward nomenclature.

At least the Monkey Jam people thought of a different name.

 

[lurcher]

try it on your finger nail if it digs in its sharp any more than 1/200 and it time and metal wasted alot of you go on and on sharpen to 1/200 when dull repeat simples
we didnt have all this tosh 50 yr ago and it no needed today to finnish a piece of wood to take a finnish then 4oo is overkill
go look at some of our fine buildings and see what was acheived with alot less than we have today
the finer you sharpen the less your tools can work they can become to pollished to form a cutting edge simlar to a knife edge
we dont need surgery sharp just very sharp will do and kept that way and away from young fingers

 

[iNewbie]

the finer you sharpen the less your tools can work they can become to pollished to form a cutting edge simlar to a knife edge
we dont need surgery sharp just very sharp will do and kept that way and away from young fingers

Knife edges can be very sharp - in fact surgery requires them so...

The sharper the better imho.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

I bought, a couple of 4 packs of 2000 grit w&d today from Halfords at £3.99 a pack. I tried a couple of motor factors outlets as suggested but they only stocked to 1200 gt.

I didn't get a chance to try it as SWMBO had me painting the banisters today, maybe tomorrow I 'll get the chance.

 

[Corneel]

Scientific? Who needs scientific? Somebody comes out with the next X-finer stone, labels it "Japanese," and the things fly off dealers' shelves. The only thing these units have in common with REAL Japanese stones (the ones that come out of the ground in Japan) is that the recommended lubricant, if you will, is water. Thank God nobody came out with fake Arkansas stones. When somebody mentions these they are talking about the rocks that come from Arkansas. What refreshing and straightforward nomenclature.

At least the Monkey Jam people thought of a different name.

Well, most of these are made in Japan, so why wouldn't we call them Japanese?

I wonder about that Monkey jam axle polish stuff. The site lookes like one of the typical snake oil suppliers.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It does look ...well... American!

 

[Trafalgar]

Let's see Corneel, I can rent virtual office space in Arkansas, manufacture a 'stone' and recommend the use of oil to float the swarf and, voila', I'm selling "Arkansas" stones.

Being manufactured "in Japan" is no marker of any particular quality, per se. There is no mystique or cultural know-how involved in any way whatsoever. All of the manufactured stones use one of a small range of fine abrasives. They can be combined with a binder and formed in to a brick, adhered to a sheet of paper, film, or thin layer of ceramic or metal, or simply provided loose in vials or other bulk packaging.

Otherwise, people appear to get pretty serious about Pinewood Derby racing. Here's a polishing kit that goes all the way through 8,000 grit 3M paper with the Monkey Jam as the last step. They list the Monkey Jam as 600,000 grit, but one must take that with a grain of salt I suppose since it's "American." What would less than .05 micron be on an equivalency scale?

https://www.derbymonkeygarage.com/axle- ... shing-kit/

I assume that there aren't any quibbles with the veracity of 3M 8,000 grit paper.

Here's a 60,000 grit diamond stick:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/181367075941?lpid=82

More 60,000 grit paste:
http://www.aussiesapphire.com.au/index. ... cts_id=232

This lapidary supplier can provide 100,000 grit polish:
http://www.gravescompany.com/polishin.htm

Here's .05 micron polishing powder from an industrial supplier (sold by the pound):
http://www.extec.com/grinding-polishing ... na-powder/

I believe that this is 500,000 grit on the American scale. The math sort of makes sense.

Monkey Jam not so unbelievable at this point.

 

[swb58]

try it on your finger nail if it digs in its sharp any more than 1/200 and it time and metal wasted alot of you go on and on sharpen to 1/200 when dull repeat simples
we didnt have all this tosh 50 yr ago and it no needed today to finnish a piece of wood to take a finnish then 4oo is overkill
go look at some of our fine buildings and see what was acheived with alot less than we have today
the finer you sharpen the less your tools can work they can become to pollished to form a cutting edge simlar to a knife edge
we dont need surgery sharp just very sharp will do and kept that way and away from young fingers

Well said Sir.
I can't help thinking that the need for finer and finer grits and pastes measured in microns is the result of marketing that leads us to believe they are a necessity. My great grandmothers brother was a cabinet maker, I would love to know what he'd say on the subject.

I also get your point about a knife edge. I just sharpened mine on a coarse carborundum stone and it cuts paper perfectly , sometimes you're better off having an edge with a bit of bite.

 

[JohnPW]

I've recently started to polish/strop with Autosol on a piece of card, and have found that it does made it sharper.

So for final honing, I would go for that.

I don't think knife sharpening is all that relevant because the finish left on the material being cut doesn't matter, at least not with kitchen knives. As long as a knife can slice eg a tomato, it's sharp enough.

 

[MIGNAL]

Finest edge I've come across was a blade sharpened on the thigh of a Cuban virgin.
No idea what Grit that is but I was smiling for a whole week.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Finest edge I've come across was a blade sharpened on the thigh of a Cuban virgin.
No idea what Grit that is but I was smiling for a whole week.

I'll bet she wasn't, with Autosol paste smeared all over her thighs.....

 

[Phil Pascoe]

No, she wasn't using Autosol. She was just using his spit.

 

[bugbear]

I don't think knife sharpening is all that relevant because the finish left on the material being cut doesn't matter, at least not with kitchen knives.

At the risk of being off topic, I disagree. With fruit and veg there is a clear difference in texture, that affects the mouth feel. If texture didnt' matter, there's only
be one shape of pasta!

BugBear

 

[GLFaria]

When it comes to abrasives and sharpening media, people seem to be getting out of touch with reality.

Just take a hard look at the work of 17th, 18th, 19th century artisans - be they joiners, gunsmiths, clock makers, whatever.

It is very obvious these people could never achieve to do any good woork - barely average - with the poor materials and equipment available at the time, isn't it? Fortunately they didn't know it and left us all those works of art for us to wonder at...

 

[Cheshirechappie]

When it comes to abrasives and sharpening media, people seem to be getting out of touch with reality.

Just take a hard look at the work of 17th, 18th, 19th century artisans - be they joiners, gunsmiths, clock makers, whatever.

It is very obvious these people could never achieve to do any good woork - barely average - with the poor materials and equipment available at the time, isn't it? Fortunately they didn't know it and left us all those works of art for us to wonder at...

It seems to be a part of human nature - mine's bigger than yours, I'm richer than you, my car is faster than your car, my polished finish is shinier than your polished finish....

Most of us don't really care much and just get on with life, but there's always someone who's driven to be one better than everyone else. Sometimes, that's a good thing, and in the end we all benefit from the innovation, but sometimes it can get a bit silly.

It's still better than there never being any innovation, though. Like using the thighs of Cuban virgins for sharpening - now THAT'S innovation! - but will we all benefit, or will it turn out to be silly? Only time will tell...

 

[bugbear]

When it comes to abrasives and sharpening media, people seem to be getting out of touch with reality.

Just take a hard look at the work of 17th, 18th, 19th century artisans - be they joiners, gunsmiths, clock makers, whatever.

It is very obvious these people could never achieve to do any good woork - barely average - with the poor materials and equipment available at the time, isn't it? Fortunately they didn't know it and left us all those works of art for us to wonder at...

Charles and I discussed that (quite a bit ) in another thread.

BugBear

 

[Corneel]

Let's see Corneel, I can rent virtual office space in Arkansas, manufacture a 'stone' and recommend the use of oil to float the swarf and, voila', I'm selling "Arkansas" stones.

When a Japanese company invents a new type of waterstone, I don't see anything wrong with calling it a Japanese waterstone.

But I see your point too. It's a bit like Gouda cheese. The rubbery tasteless stuff manufactured all over the world is now called Gouda cheese, while the real deal, made on the farms around Gouda in Holland is called "Goudse boerenkaas" (Gouda farmers cheese). They had to enter the "boeren" (farmers) into the name to distinguish it from the non descript factory stuff.

 

[Trafalgar]

Norton ought to start calling their wet-or-dry autobody sandpaper "Japanese Sandpaper" to give it an air of more quality. They could run commercials with a Japanese octogenarian rubbing out clearcoat on a restored vintage Toyota.

They're all the same abrasives, just presented in a different way.

 

[woodbrains]

When it comes to abrasives and sharpening media, people seem to be getting out of touch with reality.

Just take a hard look at the work of 17th, 18th, 19th century artisans - be they joiners, gunsmiths, clock makers, whatever.

It is very obvious these people could never achieve to do any good woork - barely average - with the poor materials and equipment available at the time, isn't it? Fortunately they didn't know it and left us all those works of art for us to wonder at...

Hello,

We often have the contention that workers of old did fabulous work with lesser tools than we have today, and I'm afraid it is bunkham. The tools they had were often the best that were available, as toolmakers exhibited the same pride and skil as the artisans who used the tools. Steel was as good as it could be made, where as steel is made as good as it can be to a price, so old steel is often at least as good as we have nowadays and arguably sometimes better. The tools they had were better than most of the tools offered to the DIY market and even many of the tools offered to the Trade. I would prefer to have any old tool, woodie, infil, whatever than something made by Stanley of Irwin etc. of the last 30 years. Thankfully some tool makers are giving us tools that are back to the standards of tool these old makers had. And at prices in real terms that are no more expensive in real terms as the old craftsmen would have had to pay.

Some of the reasons that their work was so good, aside from their skill, was time, they spent a lot more man hours on what they made, because things were not done to such price cutting as we now have to endure and also people worked long hours with poor pay and conditions. There are many reasons,work of those times were good, but it wasn't done with poor tools by any stretch. Nor ones which were not sharpened with the best media available, slate, carborundum, novaculite, etc. whatever could be quarried locally. All these things are good now and if they are obtainable, are still used. We live in a modern age though, so if we make alternatives that are more convenient, or surpass what has gone before, why should we not use them. After all, we do not have the fabulously tractable old growth Cuban Mahogany that was abundant then either. We have to make stuff from far less easy stuff.

Mike.