Which Fuse ?

[Gogsi]

Hi there,
I'm using a Pegas 16" Scroll Saw:
Power input 320 W, power output 60 W, 230 V, 400-1550

Had been using it for about an hour yesterday and stopped work until this morning.
I switched it on and....................nothing !

Oh my goodness ! How am I going to finish this project ???
Oh NO ! I'll have to ship it back to Switzerand where I purchased it !
What am I going to do ??

After I finshed my whining, I removed the 3 amp fuse and replaced it with another and.........................
Hallelujah ! It works ! What a relief.
Now, my question is, since this shipped with a European plug and I used a fused adapter with a 3 amp fuse, should I replace it with that, or do I need a larger amp one?
I apologise for my lack of electrical knowledge.
Thanks in advance for any replies.

 

[flh801978]

3 amps should supply 750 watts easily (3 x 240)
But inrush current on your motor may be as much as treble the running current so i would increase the fuse to 5 amps .
And i would cut off the European plug and fit a good quality Uk 3 pin
Ian

 

[Cabinetman]

Yes as above is fine, I was always taught that the only reason the fuse is there is to stop the wire being overloaded. Ian

 

[Gogsi]

3 amps should supply 750 watts easily (3 x 240)
But inrush current on your motor may be as much as treble the running current so i would increase the fuse to 5 amps .
And i would cut off the European plug and fit a good quality Uk 3 pin
Ian

Thanks very much. I'll get a 5amp today if I can and ditch Europe.......oops sorry, pull the plug : )

 

[scrimper]

Personally I would fit a 13amp fuse. Starting current can sometimes be five times actual running current. I spent most of my life in domestic appliance maintenance and we were always told by Hoover that we should use 13 amp fuses even on their machines rated at just 400watts.

In the case of a serious issue with a machine a 13amp fuse will blow just mill-seconds later than a lower rated one and in any case most house sockets are now protected by an RCD in the consumer unit.

 

[Gogsi]

Thanks so much for your expert opinion Scrimping. Fortunately, I already have a 13 amp, so will take your advice.

 

[AES]

@Gogsi: I agree with scrimper about fitting a UK plug, but NOT with fitting a 13 A fuse, sorry. The Manual for my EX 21 (which is the the same rating as your EX 16) states a 3A fuse should be used (see page 6 of the Manual).

FWIW, not all "euro plugs" are the same ("my" Swiss plugs - which I guess could be called "euro plugs", at least geographically speaking! - are not at all compatible with German "euro plugs" for example). So I do exactly the same thing, and cut off the supplied plug/adaptor thingies, whatever type they are, even if moulded on, and refit "correct" Swiss ones. But Swiss plugs are, unlike UK plugs, are NOT fused at all.

I have never had a fuse blow (which in my case would mean blowing the fuse in power distribution box supplying the cellar where my machine is plugged in), but just "to be sure" in your case, I'd fit a 3 A fuse as per the Manual if I were you.

Back yonks ago when I was a UK resident it was possible to get 3 A cartridge fuses to fit UK plugs (don't know if you still can) but IMO only, it would be worth a bit of effort (and the few pence involved) to replace that 13 A fuse with the "correct" (as per Manual) 3 A fuse if you can find one.

HTH

Edit for P.S: Also the Manual goes to some lengths to talk about always making sure the machine is properly earthed. That's the main reason why I always cut all "non Swiss" plugs/adaptors off all my machine leads. Having wired the plug myself I'm always sure that the machine IS properly earthed.

 

[nickds1]

Personally I would never ever just replace a fuse with 13A. If that was an ok thing to do, why bother with having different fuses at all? No need to keep a range in stock (or even to make them) - Just fit a 13A one and be done with it! Or a nail? Nails are good.

No. Fit the right sized and type fuse for the plug/appliance/cable etc. You will fail PAT testing with a wrong fuse - good thing too!

Normal fuses are not "fast blow" - they allow over- rate surge current and are good for most motor start-ups.

I would never replace a fuse with anything other than the recommended value and type (fast-blow, normal, slow-blow) If the recommended fuse keeps blowing, you likely have a problem somewhere and should be focussing on that.

 

[Duncan A]

13A is too large. A standard domestic fuse is the wrong type.
The motor is a 320W universal brushed motor, not an induction motor, so the start-up current will probably not be 5/6/8 times continuous rating.
The Axminster AT406SS scroll saw is apparently made in the same Taiwanese factory as the Pegas and has what looks like the same motor: Axminster Trade AT406SS Scroll Saw
The downloadable Axi manual says that the correct fuse is a 5A glass fuse, 20mm x 5mm.
Glass fuses are usually either slow blow or fast blow. In this case, I suspect it is a slow-blow but don't really know so I would be inclined to contact the manufacturer: Scroll Saws
Duncan

 

[AES]

As above Duncan A, the Manual for my EX 21 (which clearly says it is also the Manual for Gogsi's EX 16) clearly states 3 A for this/these machine/s. So IF I'm correct about the Manual, no need to contact the manufacturer.

It is suspected among many here that although the "original" General International/Pegas Excalibur machines look identical to the Axi Trade AT4066, they are in fact NOT the same machine/have a "reduced" spec in at least some areas.

There have been a lot of "defects" and even warranty exchanges on the Axi machines here, whereas, AFAIK, there have been no adverse reports on the "original" GI/Pegas machines.

Edit for P.S: And when you state QUOTE: The motor is a 320W universal brushed motor UNQUOTE:, you are incorrect Duncan, IF you are talking about the "original" GI/Pegas machine. The motor on these machines is 60 Volt 50 DC brushed (not sure about the Axi versions).

Not trying to be a nit picker, nor a clever clogs mate, but since Axi have brought their own version of these machines onto the market, there has been a lot of discussion (and disappointment) because, as per my original post, outwardly the Axi and the "original" machines appear identical (apart from the colour and name of the side) but from the many reports of the poor performance of the Axi versions they clearly are not ("something" has "cheapened" them).

HTH

 

[Gogsi]

@Gogsi: I agree with scrimper about fitting a UK plug, but NOT with fitting a 13 A fuse, sorry. The Manual for my EX 21 (which is the the same rating as your EX 16) states a 3A fuse should be used (see page 6 of the Manual).

FWIW, not all "euro plugs" are the same ("my" Swiss plugs - which I guess could be called "euro plugs", at least geographically speaking! - are not at all compatible with German "euro plugs" for example). So I do exactly the same thing, and cut off the supplied plug/adaptor thingies, whatever type they are, even if moulded on, and refit "correct" Swiss ones. But Swiss plugs are, unlike UK plugs, are NOT fused at all.

I have never had a fuse blow (which in my case would mean blowing the fuse in power distribution box supplying the cellar where my machine is plugged in), but just "to be sure" in your case, I'd fit a 3 A fuse as per the Manual if I were you.

Back yonks ago when I was a UK resident it was possible to get 3 A cartridge fuses to fit UK plugs (don't know if you still can) but IMO only, it would be worth a bit of effort (and the few pence involved) to replace that 13 A fuse with the "correct" (as per Manual) 3 A fuse if you can find one.

HTH

Edit for P.S: Also the Manual goes to some lengths to talk about always making sure the machine is properly earthed. That's the main reason why I always cut all "non Swiss" plugs/adaptors off all my machine leads. Having wired the plug myself I'm always sure that the machine IS properly earthed.

Thanks all for your invaluable thoughts on this, if not a wee bit con-fuse-ing, to say the least : )
I think I opened the proverbial can of worms but, it just shows what a diverse group of minds we have here on this forum. It's certainly great to be a part of this.
I'll play it safe and put in a new 3 A fuse.
Thanks much.

 

[Sandyn]

It is not a good idea to replace a 3A fuse with a 13A. Reason is that theoretically, (depending on the design) a fault could develop which draws a steady 12.5A. This will not blow the 13A fuse, but will overload the mains cable fitted to the unit. It may overheat causing a fire. That 12.5A will be causing something else to get very hot. Equipment is designed with fireproof enclosures, so there are multiple levels of safety.
Fortunately most equipment will have a non replaceable fuse inside which is rated lower than the rating of the mains cable, so it would still be safe.

According to BS1362 and the IET Code of Practice, a 3A fuse where the appliance is rated at 700W or less, and a 13A fuse when the appliance is rated at more than 700W.

 

[Ozi]

My dad always used to rap the blown fuse in lots of tin foil. The smell of *** smoke and burning bakerlite brings back such happy memories.

 

[Spectric]

All you need to remember is that the cable from the machine will determine the required fuse, if it is a small wattage motor then the OEM will have fitted a suitable csa cable that requires the mentioned 5 amp fuse. Just fitting a 13 amp fuse could mean the cable is not of sufficient csa to carry the fault current. This is a common problem because people just refer to these plugs as 13 amp plugs and assume a 13 amp fuse, not good when a cable is 0.75 or 0.5 mm Csa.

 

[Fergie 307]

And they always come fitted with a 13A fuse. Might be better if they came without a fuse fitted atall, then at least you would have to think about what you were putting in it.

 

[Duncan A]

I would still recommend checking with the manufacturer. Regardless of fuse size, if they have fitted a glass fuse at the factory, there will be a reason for it. A two line email is all it takes.
Duncan

 

[JefL]

They won’t have fitted a glass fuse to the plug in the factory. Glass fuses do not have a high enough fault current rating to meet the BS specification, it requires a ceramic bodied fuse.

 

[PeteHB]

A suitable sized nail should do the trick.

 

[Dee J]

Whilst, as an ex-electrician, I generally try to match the fuse vaguely to the likely load (and get L/N polarity correct), I'm also well aware that anything supplied with the typical euro plug is designed to be plugged into an un polarised socket protected by a 16A mcb. So relatively comfortable about a 13A fuse on most modern stuff.

 

[scrimper]

Well I have opened up a 'Hornets nest' here. I do speak with some experience here having spent all my working life in the Radio/TV/electrical repair business and running my own Electrical company for the last 30 odd years of my working life.

In actual fact the standard UK plug fuse is available in the following ratings 1A, 2A, 3A 5A, 7A, 10A and 13a and I do actually have all of these sizes in my stock. however the only official and commonly used ones are 3A and 13A.

Now as mentioned devices with motors do have a momentary starting current that is sometimes up to 5 times that of running current and in this sort of equipment you may find that a lower rated fuse may run fine but on the other hand may eventually blow.

There is talk in this thread of using 6" nails and silver paper being used rather than fuses which although over the years I have seen many of these dangerous practices in use my suggestion of using a 13A fuse has nothing to do with them obviously.

When I fit plugs and fuses I would always advocate using either a 3A or a 13A fuse as these are the only ones most people have access too and for low wattage items like for example a table lamp obviously one should fit a 3A fuse however with a motorised item generally I would advise a 13A fuse is fiited. As I mentioned in any safety issue a 13A fuse would blow almost as quickly as a smaller rated one.

In any dangerous short to earth in a machine that could result in electric shock it would be the RCD, or residual current device that would save your life not the use of a 3A fuse.

As regards to manufacturers stating the correct fuse to use, in fairness many of today's manufacturers do not actually make anything they simply buy Chinese made products and stick their logo on them, often run by venture capitalists they often know little about the products they sell and even less about proper electrical practices. You only have to look at the poor quality of some of the stuff they sell to understand this.

This post may be out of kilter with everyone else here and make me unpopular but I have to state my honest opinion.