Which anvil?

[Inspector]

I'd not seen one of those Pete - I guess it's kind of like a smith's swage block can be used for holding the stakes. But we still need something to shape the stakes onto (once we've made a little forge, of course), and the best option looks like a cheaper anvil in the absence of railway line? We'll keep looking for alternatives before hitting 'buy' though.

I didn't realize you were going to make the various sheet metal stakes using the anvil. Ages ago I saw an anvil, propane farriers forge and some tools for sale on Craigslist, a selling site. Called the guy and met him. The tools were mine for $400Cad. Now it would probably be 3 or 4 times as much. I suggest you keep your eye out for adds on all the selling sights including FB Marketplace. One will eventually come up. Another suggestion is to look up Blacksmithing groups, clubs and organizations. In addition to getting advice they probably have some for sale. Just don't be in a hurry. Something will come along. Happy hunting.

Pete

 

[Filament]

Re using rail track. I have a piece I bought off eBay years ago.

Although you see most people using them set horizontally to give more surface area (and sometimes with the ends ground into rudimentary horn shapes so it looks more ‘anvilly’), the things I’ve read by the most experienced smiths say to use the rail track on end. This way you get a lot more mass under the hammer blow (and though it’s a much smaller surface area, arguably you don’t need anything bigger than the size of your largest hammer). I used it this way with a third of my piece of track sunk into the earth and it worked very well.

Ebay seems to be the best bet for tracks as according to some scrap merchants I spoke to, they (in theory at least) are forbidden to accept anything related to the railways. Presumably to mitigate against copper being stolen and sold on as has happened in the past.

 

[Chris152]

Thanks both. I'll take a look for local groups as you suggest Pete, but tbh I think people have got it into their heads that any anvil, whatever condition, is worth a small fortune!
Filament - I figured we'd be setting the sledge head horizontally to use its side or top, but now realise people use the face of the hammer for the reasons you give for vertical orientation. And yesterday we popped into a local reclamation yard and was told exactly the same about rail track, they're not allowed to buy/ sell it.
I'm trying to post a pic of the bits we bought yesterday for making spikes and make-shift anvil (maybe) but can't get my phone to communicate with the computer!

Got it! £29 for the lot, including the 13" Footprint Tools snips for £1. I'm sure we can make some decent shaping tools from this, it's just a question of what we hammer onto.

ps Any idea what the sledgehammer with pein at the back is for?

 

[--Tom--]

The old tool shop in Crickhowell often has some stake tools and other metal work bits.
Anvil wise they come up every now and again around Merthyr and Blackwood, or fairly often around Hereford so depends how far you’re happy to travel.
Avoid anything too saddled out and with big chunks missing.

I managed to get each of mine for <£200. Worth asking for a photo of the weight markings before you travel as I was told one was maybe 80kg and turned out to be 140kg so wished I’d taken a friend when I was lifting it into the car.

 

[Chris152]

Thanks Tom, next time we're that way we'll definitely have a look.

 

[Chris152]

We cleaned up the two sledge heads this morning

and are thinking to use them in this orientation, with a round bar of mild steel in the handle hole of the one on the left, stick welded top and bottom, and several mm of weld on the top surface of the hole, then level off the whole top. Maybe weld a lump hammer head to the bottom and sit that into a block of oak.

The vertical one will stand half way into an oak block and be used for heavier hitting, the horizontal one for flattening sheet steel etc.

Does that sound like a reasonable plan?

If so, is it better to mount them into wood blocks' end grain, or long grain? I see most use end grain on a stump but we have the choice - which is stronger/ better for hammering onto?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Strange name for a firm, Shitehouse.

 

[Chris152]

Let's hope there's not a good reason

Pasties look good btw Phil, I made my first a couple of weeks ago, not sure they'd pass quality control down your way but they were ok.

 

[Chris152]

We cleaned up the two sledge heads this morning

and are thinking to use them in this orientation, with a round bar of mild steel in the handle hole of the one on the left, stick welded top and bottom, and several mm of weld on the top surface of the hole, then level off the whole top. Maybe weld a lump hammer head to the bottom and sit that into a block of oak.View attachment 169318
The vertical one will stand half way into an oak block and be used for heavier hitting, the horizontal one for flattening sheet steel etc.

Does that sound like a reasonable plan?

If so, is it better to mount them into wood blocks' end grain, or long grain? I see most use end grain on a stump but we have the choice - which is stronger/ better for hammering onto?

When we bought the larger sledge hammer, the chap said he thought it was the type they used on the railways. I searched today but found nowt, but just now zoomed in on the second photo and think I can read 'GWR' on the lowest stamp - can others see the same or is it my imagination?

 

[Chris152]

Quick one - we've just started to prepare to stick weld a lump hammer head to a shaft. What are the chances any of the heads in the photo above are actually hardened steel?
(We've tried a file on a few but the results are pretty unclear - bit harder than mild steel but not as hard as HSS steel.)

 

[Sideways]

Ideally they would be forged for toughness, they don't need to be hard like cutting tools so I wouldn't expect that. A bit harder than mild steel, yes.

 

[Chris152]

Ideally they would be forged for toughness, they don't need to be hard like cutting tools so I wouldn't expect that. A bit harder than mild steel, yes.

Thanks Sideways. We're now on the larger sledge head and it's definitely harder than mild steel, as you say. We started on a benchtop belt/ disc sander, then tried with a ROS and 40 grit, and now I'm using a fairly heavy file. The pitting on this one isn't shallow, and it's certainly taking a lot of effort to get flat. But the file is moving it, another few hundred calories and we may be ready to work through the grits to get a nice finish (we've decided to use this side rather than the top side for general sheet flattening etc.).

 

[--Tom--]

The hammer faces will be hardened- whether they’re all hardened will depend- often just the faces are hard and the middle has the hardness drawn back - e.g. by putting a red hot drift through the eye and watching the temper colours. That’s why the cheeks get dented when people use them to to hit things with.

The straight pein is often referred to as a railway hammer colloquially. If you don’t want to use it as a sledge then the pein would be useful as a stake tool. It will stretch the material more in the direction of the pein whereas a flat head stretches in all directions.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We started on a benchtop belt/ disc sander, then tried with a ROS and 40 grit, and now I'm using a fairly heavy file ...

Try coarse flap wheels on an angle grinder.

 

[spanner48]

If you're aiming to do forging, there's not much alternativce to a proper steel anvil. But for occasional heavy/hot work, I'd vote for a piece of rail.

Mine is 350mm. of 65kg rail - so, around 20kg. Bt more importantly, it's made of 1084 rail steel: with 0.7 to 1.0% Manganese, so it's very tough, and, most imprtantly, work hardening. So, the more you bash on it, the harder it gets..

Mine cost a tenner, and works fine - particularly end-on.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

This one's for sale. Not mine, I hasten to add.

 

[Chris152]

Thanks all.
I tried a flappy disc/ grinder but tbh my control isn't that good and quickly realised I was likely to make more, not less work. We bought a 40 grit belt for our belt and disc sander yesterday, and that seems to make lighter work of it - still not there yet but definitely improving.
Spanner48 - it's tricky to get hold of rail track and tbh, to travel to get any would make it not much more expensive to buy the Vevor cast/ drop forged steel one.
We'll plod on with what we have for now and see how it works - the end isn't forging as such, but making tools for panel shaping. We'll see.

 

[Chris152]

Another quick question - I just tried to heat a nail by hitting it with a 4.5 lb lump hammer on the (nearly) prepared side of the sledgehammer. Where the edge of the lump hammer hit onto the sledge hammer, it left a small but clear indent. It was a fairly light blow.
I'm sure the hardness of the sledge hammer will be fine for flattening thin sheet metal with a panel hammer, but just so we know - how far removed would you say what I described is from what you'd expect to happen on an average steel anvil surface?

 

[--Tom--]

Looks like you hit the cheek and it dented - only the faces of the hammer and pein can be expected to be hard

 

[Chris152]

Yes, I was hitting the side but wondered if the hardening had reached that far. Clearly not I guess! Thanks Tom.