Where did the knowledge about the capiron get lost?

[iNewbie]

This Charles is much more recognizable.

Since nobody else did it, I searched through the old posts on this site and I looked for anyone who commented on "chipbreaker, tearout" or "cap iron, tearout". There was a single person who suggested using the cap iron to eliminate tearout, a user who goes by the handle IVAN. Ivan's second post is a situation where he was actually using it.

Bravo, Ivan.

Nobody responded a peep to what he said, even when people disagreed with his assessment that the cap iron can provide a steepened angle like a scraper, but with a more favorable surface quality (which is exactly correct). Again, not getting into the argument that a customer usually has no clue what's sanded or planed, I worked for 3 summers in a cabinet factory with 500 employees and I certainly never saw anything other than wax sticks and shellac sticks to fix problems on doors and face frames, and we made 3000-3500 cabinets a week and never had trouble selling any for issues outside of *color matching*.

Ivan posted accurately about using the cap iron once in 2007 and once in 2009. In a world of such common knowledge, i'm surprised that someone didn't agree with him when others were disagreeing. I guess it was too subtle, and it just went by, even though it's buried in the research results between gobs of posts talking about chipbreakers stabilizing blades and needing heavier and thicker blades or heavier cap irons.

It seems much easier to point out you heard it or read it before (as I suggested to Bill we'd hear), but the actually suggestion of *doing* it with an accurate bit of instruction doesn't appear on this site that I can see except from above. that's too bad. It probably would've saved a lot of people a lot of money that they could've spent on wood and finish supplies.

David I think you'll find Ivan was inspired by the Kato video. I think his knowledge was internet gained... Theres a post from 2006 (a year before your 2007 post) talking about it.

I'm not sure why you have a hard-on for David C but he replies on page two of that Ivan thread and of using a close setting: plane-whispering-of-bevel-angle-and-frog-t13410-15.html

In 2012 he mentions: The setting is quite difficult but not impossible. I find this research most exciting and a little galling, as the advice I have given over the last 35 years or so could have been better. i.e. Close is not good enough, ultra close works like magic.

new-planing-behaviour-knowledge-microscopes-etc-t61233.html

I'm not sure what you are looking for but he certainly isn't hiding anything.

/and no I'm not a fanboy I just respect the guys credentials.

 

[D_W]

I don't have any such thing for Charlesworth, just that he was one of the few English folks I can remember who stated something on SMC.

He's memorable to me because I learned many of the basic skills from watching his videos, and regardless of discussions on here, I have very high regard for him and figure if he said something like that on SMC, I expect it's accurate.

As in, I figure when he speaks about anything, it's worth noting - and I wouldn't gather that it is anything but direct and honest.

I'd expect that since that post in 2012 (which was not long after the whole discussion blew up on wood central and the SMC forum in the states) that he's since found it easier to set the cap iron where he wants it.

Just in case anyone thinks otherwise because of recent discussion about LN or the "improved" cap iron on here, I am still overall a "fanboy" of David C's..nobody should think I'm a critic of David C. I disagree with Larry Williams all the time, too, but I still tell people to purchase his videos, as I do with David's (and there really isn't much that I would actually refer to people to buy). I still tell people who are brand new that David's plane sharpening video is the most comprehensive and easy instruction to get instant results with (not that I am confining it to those who are new, but just as a statement that it's well done enough that I think it's hard to miss on the that method when you're in need).

What I was looking for, though, was evidence (OK, this is the sixth or seventh time I've said this now) that if using the cap iron was so well known, that someone suggested that it is a practical (in fact I would assert that it's superior for someone who will learn to use it) method for controlling tearout, to the point that as far as planes go, it is dominant. Or even anything close, like a basic post responding to someone with the following:

* on your first try, set the cap iron as close as possible until the plane literally is not cutting or is nearly jamming with shavings, then back the cap iron of enough so that the shavings are straightened out by it. If the plane jams or offers too much resistance, the cap iron is too close. If you still experience tearout, then it is not close enough.

I am also trying to piece together the logical puzzle pieces, like the LN issue (how would nobody have noticed that the cap iron couldn't be set on large numbers of planes if this is a common knowledge item that presumably would've been used in practice?)

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

just noticed I misread the OP. I have been under the impression it was "WHEN did knowledge of the cap iron get lost?", but it's actually "WHERE did knowledge of the cap iron get lost"

I know the answer, it got lost on the internet. Blooming big place so easily done, probably spent a few years hanging out on amateur astronomy forums. Let's keep a careful eye on it from now on so it doesn't wander off again.

 

[D_W]

Certainly someone could tie a line to it so's we could give a tug when retrieval is needed. I normally respond to anything cap iron related like a ready-to-pop pimple, but this is my last cap iron thread - it's been like pulling teeth just to try to get truly objective responses and I care a lot less about it lately. I don't expect anyone to withhold applause.

 

[bugbear]

What I was looking for, though, was evidence (OK, this is the sixth or seventh time I've said this now) that if using the cap iron was so well known...

Well, there's the thing.

It wasn't well known.

But it wasn't unknown either.

Some people knew it (Steve Elliott in 2006, for example, per the link I gave).

Some people didn't know it (like several authors of instructional texts).

I think that about covers things.

I do have a practical question; it's fairly "well known" that raising the effective pitch of a plane to reduce tearout makes the plane harder to push, and also decreases the quality (gloss, if you like) of the surface.

I remember this being explored quite thoroughly my Lyn Mangiameli and Steve Knight.

Does a close cap iron have similar side effects?

BugBear

 

[Droogs]

I am also trying to piece together the logical puzzle pieces, like the LN issue (how would nobody have noticed that the cap iron couldn't be set on large numbers of planes if this is a common knowledge item that presumably would've been used in practice?)

If I may DW, from my personal experience, in the time that I've been frittering around with wood, I have never met anyone who owns a L-N or Veritas plane. admitedly most of my woodworking has been an on off afair, especially whilst I was a serviceman. First in the RAF and then in the Royal Corps of Signals. woodwork for me has been a pastime that has been done using old tools, usually left over in woodwork clubs on camp from when they were used in anger either by RAF riggers (chaps who repaired hurricane and mosquitto wings etc) or were donated by village locals near to the camp. Currently I have around a dozen planes of various types and have never spent more than $30 to buy one. Most hobbyists I know could not afford to buy the likes of L-N et al until very recently (the last decade or so). Also here in the UK it seems the vast majority of woodworkers are older than I and don't do t'interweb thingy, so wouldn't be aware of events as you describe them and therefore wouldn't have been able to comment or give advice. usually they are more than happy to pass on their knowledge and use their experience to help those wishing to learn, if they could find someone to do so, and as has happened on several occasions, bequeath that person their tools just so they go to someone who will use and appreciate them instead of rotting in grandads old shed.

I do hope this perhaps helpyou understand our mindset on this side of the pond

rgds
droogs

 

[bridger]

just noticed I misread the OP. I have been under the impression it was "WHEN did knowledge of the cap iron get lost?", but it's actually "WHERE did knowledge of the cap iron get lost"

I know the answer, it got lost on the internet. Blooming big place so easily done, probably spent a few years hanging out on amateur astronomy forums. Let's keep a careful eye on it from now on so it doesn't wander off again.

I think it's more a matter of that it never reached critical mass on the internet until Kato. This is the problem with echo chambers- a couple of loud voices harmonizing out of time will drown out the quietly correct.

 

[Woodmonkey]

This has got to be a contender for most tedious thread of the year

 

[D_W]

What I was looking for, though, was evidence (OK, this is the sixth or seventh time I've said this now) that if using the cap iron was so well known...

Well, there's the thing.

It wasn't well known.

But it wasn't unknown either.

Some people knew it (Steve Elliott in 2006, for example, per the link I gave).

Some people didn't know it (like several authors of instructional texts).

I think that about covers things.

I do have a practical question; it's fairly "well known" that raising the effective pitch of a plane to reduce tearout makes the plane harder to push, and also decreases the quality (gloss, if you like) of the surface.

I remember this being explored quite thoroughly my Lyn Mangiameli and Steve Knight.

Does a close cap iron have similar side effects?

BugBear

If the cap iron is set properly (not too close, but so that it is forcing the chip downward some) it has no effect on the surface other than to reduce tearout. So, you wouldn't look and see crushed fibers or anything.

It's been a while since I used a high angle plane and looked really close at the wood, but you and I would conclude that on softer or medium hard woods that you can feel and see a difference in finish. the softer, the greater the difference. On stuff like hard maple, we won't notice much (which I'm convinced is why Derek and I have so many disagreements about surface quality, and though it seems like it sometimes the way I come across, I've never discounted his experience - I think it's tempered by circumstances).

Anyway, what I'm getting at is if you set the cap iron properly on a medium hardwood, you won't notice anything. But if it's set a little too close, the surface quality will start to suffer (and if on a quartered wood that's fairly soft like sycamore, you'll be able to see that the fibers have been crushed a little bit. Not exactly the same as wood that has planer chatter evidence despite being flat (if you don't plane enough after removing chatter marks to also remove the wood that was crushed by the planer below the surface level), but similar look.

If it's set way too close, then the wood surface just isn't smooth and it looks and feels bad.

So, no, it shouldn't affect surface quality unless it's unintentionally set too close, which is why it's preferable to a high angle plane. The effort to push should be less than a high angle plane for the same tearout protection, and the iron longevity should be better if the cap iron is properly set.

The reason that I don't like 80 degrees on a cap iron is that it narrows the distance the cap iron can be set. The range between too close and not close enough is shorter, and the chance of getting an affected surface is greater. That's not a problem on a super surfacer, apparently. I don't know if other people agree with me on that, but I checked bed angles with a cap iron from 38-50, and cap iron bevel angles from 45-80 (I didn't get enough effect at 45 to get a perfect surface, and I didn't like the abruptness of 80. Coincidentally, the best working chipbreakers that I've found are stock stanley cleaned up and polished - no steeper angle than what's already there. Best working being easiest to get a chip that's worked or straightened some and a good result on the wood).

 

[D_W]

This has got to be a contender for most tedious thread of the year

Well, we'd better finish it soon before the new year so that it's not the most tedious of two separate years.

 

[D_W]

I am also trying to piece together the logical puzzle pieces, like the LN issue (how would nobody have noticed that the cap iron couldn't be set on large numbers of planes if this is a common knowledge item that presumably would've been used in practice?)

If I may DW, from my personal experience, in the time that I've been frittering around with wood, I have never met anyone who owns a L-N or Veritas plane. admitedly most of my woodworking has been an on off afair, especially whilst I was a serviceman. First in the RAF and then in the Royal Corps of Signals. woodwork for me has been a pastime that has been done using old tools, usually left over in woodwork clubs on camp from when they were used in anger either by RAF riggers (chaps who repaired hurricane and mosquitto wings etc) or were donated by village locals near to the camp. Currently I have around a dozen planes of various types and have never spent more than $30 to buy one. Most hobbyists I know could not afford to buy the likes of L-N et al until very recently (the last decade or so). Also here in the UK it seems the vast majority of woodworkers are older than I and don't do t'interweb thingy, so wouldn't be aware of events as you describe them and therefore wouldn't have been able to comment or give advice. usually they are more than happy to pass on their knowledge and use their experience to help those wishing to learn, if they could find someone to do so, and as has happened on several occasions, bequeath that person their tools just so they go to someone who will use and appreciate them instead of rotting in grandads old shed.

I do hope this perhaps helpyou understand our mindset on this side of the pond

rgds
droogs

Thanks for the perspective. I've heard the retailers here say that 90% of their sales are to people who don't read the internet, and there are "schools" here (which are just private class type affairs like paul sellers operates) that have folks who don't ever read anything other than fine woodworking (that's getting to be an outdated statement, but that sentiment from when FWW was in its heyday).

I'd imagine that people who started to woodwork more than 20 years ago are less likely to have bought any premium planes, and those who started and found bloggers as resources are more likely to have bought premium planes here. Plus, LN has a traveling show, and we used to have a lot of brick and mortar stores with the planes in them where people could sometimes get a trial.

I haven't met too many people even in person around here who use hand tools, though plenty of woodworkers who do stuff like make tables, cabinets, et al for their houses. Usually when I show someone a plane that I've made, their eyes cross trying to figure out where the wood goes in it or how someone would use it.

Long and short, I'd imagine a larger percentage of woodworkers there have exposure to hand tools, but a larger percentage of those with exposure over here would have bought some sort of premium plane.

 

[G S Haydon]

In a broad stroke all knowledge in this craft/trade is old news. We figure it out or someone else passes the knowledge on to us. Books are written and printed all the time and pretty much the same info is contained within.

However DW is broadly correct. Most advise gleaned from the interweb did go through a phase where modern versions of tools were highly praised or really old single iron planes got the love. west-dean-pics-t24308.html Rob was kind enough to pimp out the wood from hell to me. Excellent surface was had on it with a Stanley is stock trim and even the Silverline #4 was pretty good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kURYRhTDzMg (9:56) is where I try it.

So advise for someone with tearout when using a POS Silverline? Learn how to use the cap iron .

 

[n0legs]

Some people knew it (Steve Elliott in 2006, for example, per the link I gave).

Aye! Along with every woodwork teacher, nearly every second fix chippy, most probably every cabinet maker and a hell of a lot of the members on here.
I guess we just needed telling :wink:

I do hope this perhaps help you understand our mindset on this side of the pond

=D> =D> That's our problem, we're on this side of the pond and we this third world nation that used to be called Great Britain, have never contributed anything anywhere :wink:

This has got to be a contender for most tedious thread of the year

Absof******lutely =D>

I care a lot less about it lately.

Thank f****** god for that.



Professionals who use the plane on a daily basis will know all there is to know. The tool becomes part of them, they feel when it's not performing and know exactly what to do to get the best out of it. All good craftsmen get to this point in all trades.
What people think of as the latest thing or a new trick has 9 times out of 10 been known by every professional practitoner for years, the difference being they were too busy working the tools to be talking about it.

 

[MIGNAL]

It's quite possible that many people took their eye off the ball through the 'noise' of the new fangled planes, upgraded thicker blades and upgraded chipbreakers. In other words the advice became more about buying a better plane (Veritas, LN, Clifton) rather than using a specific technique. Don't forget that in the bad old days many of us only had the use of standard Stanley/Record planes. That was your lot. We really didn't have the option of buying one of the better engineered planes. It's as though the answer to tearout had become more about spending money. I actually don't remember that many threads about reducing tearout. Mostly they were about which was the best plane, the best blade steel, the best chipbreaker.

 

[n0legs]

Don't forget that in the bad old days many of us only had the use of standard Stanley/Record planes. That was your lot.

Aye for sure, look at some of the work those tools have produced in the right hands.

 

[ED65]

This has got to be a contender for most tedious thread of the year

Tedious though some of it has been, I for one have found it very interesting and informative.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has benefited. Speaking for myself the important information I've gleaned was not about cap iron settings but about the issues surrounding the thread title and D_W's points about why the simple truth about it was not given as standard advice any time the issue came up – and still is not! – which I happen to think gives some extremely valuable perspective to those learning woodworking online.

It is not like the knowledge of the cap iron as the major (or only) means to control tearout is so universally known that there isn't value in bringing that point itself to light. No matter how old hat it might seem to those who have known about it since the year dot, I can state as a fact: that information could still do with being more widely disseminated on other forums. And by more widely disseminated I mean hammered home (hammer)

 

[Zeddedhed]

These forums (and probably others like it) are not the domain of full time joiners/cabinet makers/carpenters as a rule. I know many, many carpenters and joiners and a dozen or so cabinet makers and not a single one of them are on these forums, despite my encouraging them to join. Neither have any of them read Fine Woodworking or any of the other magazines. They've never heard of David Charlesworth (sorry David) or any of the other popular figures we've discussed yet for all of them using a plane correctly would be as natural as breathing.

For the most they simply do their job, go home, eat their tea and zone out in front of the tv.

Whilst I accept that there are full timers/professionals here we are certainly in the minority. For myself I've been on this forum for only a couple of years if that and I've never been interested in discussions about tearout or Cap Irons (until now!!).

 

[condeesteso]

I think Zed above is absolutely right, and the actual debate has been the attraction of this thread.
Regarding the OP, I am fairly sure the answer is this:
- where? between Connecticut and Maine
- when? 90's
- how? the collective work of Tom LN and Chris S, then editor of the most influential woodworking magazine in the World
- why? lack of deep knowledge at that time

That's about it.

 

[PAC1]

I think Zed above is absolutely right, and the actual debate has been the attraction of this thread.
Regarding the OP, I am fairly sure the answer is this:
- where? between Connecticut and Maine
- when? 90's
- how? the collective work of Tom LN and Chris S, then editor of the most influential woodworking magazine in the World
- why? lack of deep knowledge at that time

That's about it.

Douglas I think that is a tad harsh on Tom and Chris. Tom had a young business to promote and Chris was doing his job as a journalist. It might be more accurate to blame the perception of the power of the WWW. If you assume all have equal access then you ask the question D_W and the OP asks. The reality is that only those who chose to access and comment do so. It cannot and should not be equated to the sum of the human races knowledge. This thread is a good example I only saw the argument when D_W joined this forum a few months ago and only decided to comment to this thread not the others where he has raised cap irons on this forum. Statistically self selecting responders would be ignored in most proper studies but D_W is trying to use them to support his case that because we were silent, we only pretend we knew. The silence could be from not being on the relevant forum to apathy. Neither prove anything
But our silence is criticised as if we were required by law to respond. I have shown that the knowledge was there in writing not lost.
The point people should take from this thread is that the WWW is not the font of all knowledge. Books and the apprenticeship system still have a role to play.

 

[D_W]

That's a bit of an extrapolation. I don't assume that you didn't know anything. I assume that anything of the following could be true:
* you know it well, and choose not to respond for various reasons (it's not worth your time, etc, or it's not your first use)
* you are aware of the benefit of the cap iron due to having learned it, but haven't done it in practice much or at all
* you are aware of the benefit of the cap iron, but it's not at the top of your head, it's something you remember if you're reminded
(all of the above I am assuming means you knew it before, or not because of anything to do with the company who makes the super surfacer and the related japanese study).
* you didn't know it, but you're responding that you did
* Insert many other possibilities

For all I know, 200 people could be in any one of the bullet points above - i believe that it wasn't brought up much because most people aren't doing it in practice because they have no economic reason to, and perhaps for some, a lack of courtesy (you're not obligated to do something, but if you see somewhere that you could help with a minute or two of typing, it sure is discourteous not to). I don't believe nobody knew anything about the cap iron, it works too well for it to have been wiped off of the map.

Also, I don't know how much tradesmen in the UK would've used a hand plane, lets say from the 1950s on. In the US, it's not much or many. Perhaps it's more common there, but I've never seen one in use in a shop here - even mennonite shops, and the amish folks I know use power tools with the motors replaced with pneumatic or hydraulic motors that are driven off of a diesel power supply.

I will add one more that I found in the search yesterday - someone who is from Finland who mentioned that they use the cap iron with good effect. Add that to Ivan. The strange thing is that when they responded they use the cap iron, that response was followed with a defensive statement that they didn't want to get into a debate about it. What does that suggest? It suggests that it would get you into the same spat that was occurring on american forums at the time - that suggesting that you can use the cap iron to control tearout would invite disagreement (the Finnish responder - and I can't remember his handle now) was prior to 2012.

So, I'm sure there are plenty of people who were aware of the cap iron effect. What I'm curious about is how many people were using it and suggesting it. It doesn't seem to be many. Even on this forum, high angle, tight mouth, resharpen, scraper and sand are far and away the more common response I can see from the archives.

I am genuinely curious, that's all, because I have gone from a huge array of planes (including scraping planes) to just a couple of stanley 4 planes for final smoothing, and scrapers (for surfaces that can't be planed). I haven't sanded anything other than kitchen cabinets and one moulding profile in quite a long time - the kitchen cabinets because they are mostly ply, and the wife requested they look manufactured.

The cap iron works so well if you demand something of it that it's dominant on anything that can be planed. Dominant is a term from game theory (a follow on to linear algebra and statistics) - it asserts that a strategy is better than another no matter what.

That the cap iron is dominant only seems to be evident if you demand from yourself that you work with it until it's completely mastered. That is why I made admittedly rude comments to Derek in 2012 when he was not quite so sold on the cap iron as he is now - at least not at the level I am (the heel wrestling thing, sometimes you draw heat to egg someone on). I said to him that I figured as time went on, he would see my way. I don't know that he actually does at this point, but it doesn't matter quite so much. I in no way expect everyone to see my way, but it is fun to draw heat and push discussion a little bit to see where things will end up. Most polite discussions on forums end up with this "everyone's right" kind of attitude. If the market had seen planes with that attitude, we wouldn't see so many double iron planes everywhere - it'd be a mish mash of all kinds of things, single irons, very steep, etc.

(Ivan and the Finnish individual can't be the only people who have ever recommended the cap iron on here, either, it's just in the couple of dozen or so threads I've read about tearout, they made a brief suggestion of it and their comments don't seem to have gotten any traction).