When a customer goes against your advice.....

[LBCarpentry]

I’m currently pricing up a set of internal french doors. The opening space is 2080 x 2600. Against my advice, the are insisting that they want the whole space taken up by two doors, both measuring approx 1m wide x 2.6 high x 45mm. It’s essentially a PAT 10 door and the component sizes are to be 90mm x 45mm finish. I’m not asking for advice, but wondering if you would ask them to sign a disclaimer stating that there is a risk of twist, and should this occure you are not responsible.....

 

[Yojevol]

For the sake of my reputation I would turn the job down. They might see it your way then.

 

[Trevanion]

That's not all that wide, to be honest. it's only a little wider than standard a standard 36" door. If you're using decent timber and glue it up on a flat surface it should have zero twist, then the glass should hold it fairly well against twist as well. I find the Pattern 10 doors tend to twist much less than any other style due to the lack of timber. If you're using sub-standard timber and a non-flat gluing surface, that's where your twists really begin life.

I just did a pair of 1300mm doors in European Oak, not too worried about them.

 

[AJB Temple]

Answer: it's either the wrong customer or the wrong advice.

Consider steel internal reinforcing core if there is a big risk?

 

[katellwood]

If they're after full width opening then you might ask them if they would consider something like this.

My brief was to facilitate full width opening without the doors intruding too far whilst fully open or when opening. they were to split the living room from kitchen/diner to address noise whilst the occupier was hosting dinner parties etc and the kids were watching tv/computer games

they proved very effective

 

[dzj]

When in doubt, let someone else do it.

 

[chris watford]

Are they new / a recommendation or an existing client ?

I would ask them if they had other quotes for this specification also.

Chris

 

[tomatwark]

If you have enough work without it and you are not sure about the customer, walk away.

I wish I had done this with a kitchen I did last year, which ended up in the hands of the solicitors when they started playing silly people after we had bent over backwards to do what they wanted.

They did sign a contract but still played silly people.

 

[ColeyS1]

That's not all that wide, to be honest. it's only a little wider than standard a standard 36" door.

+1 Can't see it being too much of a problem if you use decent timber.



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[MikeG.]

It isn't just joinery customers who go against advice. Here's my current job:

My suggestion:

What they want:

I've told them that what they want looks like a 1970s council house garage. We're still in discussion.

 

[HOJ]

I agree with Trevanion & ColeyS1, one of my current projects, a set of 3 external french doors are getting upto this width, but not quite as tall though.

Another option if door swing space is restricted, which I did on another project (doors were 1200mm wide) was to make them sliders, worked a treat and no intrusion into the room, so furniture could still be close to them.

+ I do have some experience making doors and frames

 

[RobinBHM]

I’m currently pricing up a set of internal french doors. The opening space is 2080 x 2600. Against my advice, the are insisting that they want the whole space taken up by two doors, both measuring approx 1m wide x 2.6 high x 45mm. It’s essentially a PAT 10 door and the component sizes are to be 90mm x 45mm finish. I’m not asking for advice, but wondering if you would ask them to sign a disclaimer stating that there is a risk of twist, and should this occure you are not responsible.....

Get them to sign an indemnity to say precisely what you wont guarantee: ie twists, bows, door latch wont close easily etc etc.

Tall doors are best with no mortice lock as that weakens the stile and can cause a bow -best with just a tubular latch.

I would recommend fitting door stops with a rubber draught seal to increase the amount of give.

And I would strongly recommend fitting cover strips down the middle with draught seal -door twists are less visible behind cover strips than a rebated door set.

I would use laminated door stiles, red grandis, sapele or softwood -rather than solid.

Im slightly wondering if you should use 54mm stiles rather than 45mm for a 2.6 door

 

[user22161]

wondering if you would ask them to sign a disclaimer stating that there is a risk of twist, and should this occure you are not responsible.....

Give them a written quotation and include a statement that the size/design is to their design and may be subject to twist, which will not be covered by guarantee.

 

[mr rusty]

+1 for not using 45mm - I'd increase the thickness. FWIW I have recently (last summer) made some exterior french doors in Accoya and over the winter they haven't moved a mm - Also the sash windows I have made for the same house project have now been in 2 winters and they also haven't shifted at all. Not a smidgen. I'm now a great advocate for accoya as a stable waterproof timber for joinery.

However, they have to be painted - accoya isn't pretty.

 

[LBCarpentry]

Thanks for the opinions.

I have sent the quotation - using woodex red grandis. Should do the job. Maybe accoya is a better option though. The red grandis was £500! Blimey it’s shot up!

I have no issue with the actual making. People want what they want and who am I to say no. But if they twist then you better get your wallet back out. Good idea with the cover strip. Absolutely hate them but in this case your right, they will hide any small movement better than rebated.

 

[LBCarpentry]

+1 for not using 45mm - I'd increase the thickness. FWIW I have recently (last summer) made some exterior french doors in Accoya and over the winter they haven't moved a mm - Also the sash windows I have made for the same house project have now been in 2 winters and they also haven't shifted at all. Not a smidgen. I'm now a great advocate for accoya as a stable waterproof timber for joinery.

However, they have to be painted - accoya isn't pretty.

I still have my doubts about accoya. I made my own windows with Accoya and your correct, they haven’t budged. But using SS screws was damn annoying. I’m so paranoid every time I’ve used it. Even when it comes to painting as I’ve heard so many horror stories. Plus it clogs the machines like no ones biz!

Think I’m still a red grandis man if I want total piece of mind.

 

[Trevanion]

Think I’m still a red grandis man if I want total piece of mind.

Except when the Woodex stuff delaminates in the heat! A friend of mine made a door from the Red Grandis Woodex stuff with Teknos paint and in the blistering summer that's just been literally ALL of the laminated joints showed up through the paint cracked. You could open and close the cracks with your bare hands! They put it down to a dodgy batch of glue but I'm not so sure of it myself. That's a real, genuine horror story. Give me solid timbers every day of the week.

 

[LBCarpentry]

This is also true- but which??

Douglas Fir is shockingly bad now, the quality of oak is becoming lower as the cost goes up. Sapele is great But is just so dusty to machine!

Southern yellow pine it is!

 

[ColeyS1]

Sapele is great But is just so dusty to machine

That sounds like you should look again at your extraction - seriously. 20-30 years down the road your lungs might be glad you did. I've never not used sapele because of dust.


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[RobinBHM]

This is also true- but which??

Douglas Fir is shockingly bad now, the quality of oak is becoming lower as the cost goes up. Sapele is great But is just so dusty to machine!

Southern yellow pine it is!

By far the best joinery timber I have found is engineered siberian larch. 6m lengths, dead straight. Close grained, durability and densilty similar to hardwood. The finger jointing is virtually impossible to detect after painting.

I now buy solid siberian larch, graded 1-3 the best boards I convert to glazing bead. Ive just made some box sashes using solid siberian for the weight boxes, facings etc -very good.

Unfortunately I have to import the engineered from Germany.

I use accoya, but it has its problems. Ive had to remake 3 doors in yhe last 2 years because wind caught the doors and the hinge style split. Accoya boards arent very flat nowadays. And accoya does shrink and swell -the bottom rail of sashes and door leafs expands so you feel it where it meets the rail. Then there are issues with steel -many screws and locks arent available in stainless.

I do use accoya for quite a few things, plant on glazing bar, glazing bead, box sash cill section and other things. Also use a lot of tricoya.