What's the difference between "Trade" and other paint?

[stuartpaul]

What do folk recommend for inside?

I've used Johnstones water based undercoat and satin for a few years now.

Can easily get an undercoat and topcoat on in a day and it doesn't stink the house out! Plus factor is the quick drying means the dog doesn't have to be excluded from the house all day. I also find it doesn't seem to yellow as quickly (if at all).

Some people don't like the brush marks (use good quality synthetic brush) as it doesn't flow quite as well as a traditional oil based gloss but for me it's well worth the trade of.

 

[RichardG]

I just want to add in to this thread what I have said in so many other threads: that modern water based micro-porous paints such as Bedec Multi-Surface Paint (MSP) and Barn Paint are utterly wonderful and will beat any undercoat and gloss system hands down in terms of durability. The MSP is as close as you can get with a a paintbrush to the factory applied finishes on high end timber windows (such as from Scandinavia) which will last 20 years plus before needing any attention, and even then, don't need any sanding down or scraping. Just wash, allow to dry, and re-coat. I never specify anything else, and I never use anything else myself. Wonderful stuff. (That's not to say that linseed oil paints aren't good too, but they are much more finicky to get right).

I second this, have painted all my fascia with MSP, 10 years and still going strong. It’s also great not to have to faff around with undercoat, primer etc.

 

[gregmcateer]

Since removal of lead from oil paint, they will all yellow over time.
Water based is good now, but not as shiny or crisp as oil based.

Bedec MSP is said to be great on almost everything, (I've used it inside, very happy with it and goes on anything with minimal prep), bit I've not used it outside yet.

I've just repainted porch with Allback linseed oil paint after about 5 years, as it has gone very chalky and quite grubby looking. Not delighted with longevity of it, but it is south facing and I hadn't done any maintenance meantime, so probably my fault

 

[ColeyS1]

Can msp provide the same level of finish as a good quality gloss? I doubt it. I've used msp alot, it has its place but I dont think it replaces other tried and tested methods of painting that has been the standard for years.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[AJB Temple]

Whilst I very much respect the expertise of Mike and others, my experience of Multi Surface Paint (MSP) is mixed. I have not used their barn paint yet.

I do use MSP in challenging circumstances. For example, a building I needed to improve had some double glazed windows with wood effect plastic film coating that was supposed to replicate oak. It was quite effective I suppose. I used MSP to coat the plastic (per per spec) and it does work. However, where I might in conventional applications use an undercoat and one or at most two coats of gloss, the MSP always needed 4 coats to get rid of streaks. It is also prone to peeling in places of challenging adherence.

It does work, but it is a) thin and b) expensive.

 

[Doug71]

I tried MSP for the first time on an Accoya sliding sash window a few weeks ago.

I phoned their helpline to ask if it was suitable for use over Accoya, I was told all the technical department were away on a cruise so nobody knew but they did suggest to try it and see what happens =D>

I gave the window 4 coats and it still looked a bit thin, customer didn't like the finish, they thought it looked like undercoat and are getting it repainted.

It was very easy to apply and I will be using it again in certain situations, but for me it's not the answer to everything.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I used the Bedec MSP, on Mike's frequently given recommendation, for our bedroom widow frames, skirtings and door. Just last month in fact.

Plus points - it is greatly better than the water based acrylic paints I've used before, Wickes home brand and Crown. It is very white. Perhaps too brilliant white, if that's possible. The smell is mild - a bit like a very faint whiff of Copydex glue.

Minus points - it still does not flow anything like oil based gloss, easy to leave brush marks. Especially on large areas like the door - I worked like fury to try an keep a wet edge but the finish is still pants.

Yet to be determined - is is durable ? The other water based gloss I've used before goes into a sticky mess when handled a lot. It has almost all come off the handrail on the stairs with cleaning, and has left a sticky patch on doors where they are handled.

 

[deema]

My own experience with MSP is that it is great for spraying and leaves a great finish. However, when brushed, I personally found it thin, and left brush marks. I’m not aware of any levelling fluid that can be added to reduce brush marks.

 

[ColeyS1]

The white barn paint is terrible for coverage.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[MikeG.]

MSP isn't a direct replacement for gloss. If you want a water based gloss for your skirting boards etc then there are plenty of those, including a Bedec system. Anyone painting MSP thinking they are going to get the look of gloss paint are going to be disappointed. That's not the point. The point is covering external surfaces (not just woodwork) with a paint which will still be there untouched in a decade or two, something that no undercoat & gloss system will ever achieve.

There are certainly things to criticise Bedec for, including a real shortage of off-the-shelf colours, the price, and fantastical claims for the coverage of their Barn paint. However, criticising the paint because it doesn't look like someone else's paint isn't one of them.

 

[RobinBHM]

marketing and price points are difference between retail and trade.
Dulux and others sell cheaper paint to the retail outlets. Dulux trade from trade counters like brewers is both moer expensive and better paint -it contains more expensive base materials.


alkyd paints, commonly known as 'oil based' have a limitation: oxidisation, these paints get harder during their life until they crack. the result is the good old stripping back. These paints will cure in lowish temperatures

acrylic paints: these are water based, some contain a small amount of alykd to help flow, but brushes can still be washed out in water. Water based paints will only cure in temperatures above about 12 degrees -and anything below the mid teens makes them very slow to cross link


the longevity of a surface coating is very dependent on joinery design.
There are three key things that determine the length of time between decoration cycles:
water trapping
radius edges
treatment of joints.

1. water trapping -very small gaps, eg a flush dummy window sash. if a window sash is made tight to the rebate, it will leave a small gap which will create capillary action, water will get in and cant get out.

2. radius edges -sharp edges cant have a full film thickness of the surface coating, so its a weak point. all external edges should have a radius of 3mm

3. joints: glued joints like on a door, should have a 3mm radius put on them before assembly, then v joint sealer applied before painting.
look at any door -the bottom rail joint will almost always have a paint crack -due to the rail shrinking and expanding. A flush joint will crack and moisture egress will occur.

well designed joinery, factory sprayed will have a long life span: 10 years plus before 1st redecoration cycle (Teknos gurantee 12 years on accoya).

 

[Rich C]

I've had good results with dulux trade acrylic. Not the cheapest, but I got an excellent flat finish when sprayed and a decent finish off a brush.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I forgot from my comments on Bedec MSP to agree with whoever said it was thin - almost a bit translucent. If Dulux once should be Dulux never, this should definitely be Bedec Thrice.

 

[AJB Temple]

I can't remember if I posted this before. I had to use Bedec to paint some window frames that were aluminium covered in wood look plastic film (from manufacture). Very, very careful prep was needed (to get adherence or it peels off) and - as was said said above - it is very thin so I found myself doing 4 coats to get a satisfactory finish. Hence it is labour intensive, but it did the job effectively, and may well be pretty much the only paint usable for that type of application.

 

[johnnyb]

just to get this out there my choice of paint is sandtex flexigloss or 10 year satin. complete with matching primer undercoat.(and sika wood preserver)
it's a great product for traditional type painting. the gloss achievable on victorian doors is something else.
use gras a lacquer(sand to 800)then gloss+ 12percent owatrol.

 

[Max Power]

just to get this out there my choice of paint is sandtex flexigloss or 10 year satin. complete with matching primer undercoat.(and sika wood preserver)
it's a great product for traditional type painting. the gloss achievable on victorian doors is something else.
use gras a lacquer(sand to 800)then gloss+ 12percent owatrol.

First time I've come across gras a lacquer Johnyb but having looked I'll be using it on my next job.
I can vouch for the long lifetime flexigloss systems though, having used the sandtex and johnstones equivelent and had a decade or more out of them. I've got a wrought iron gate that has lasted around fifteen years with only a dulling of the gloss

 

[thomashenry]

I'm a Linseed paint man for external. For internal I use water based eggsell, or linseed if the colour is what I want. I absolutely despite gloss paint.

The first coat of linseed paint, thinned with linseed oil and turps smells divine.

 

[clogs]

just to add the chem's in paint has changed in the last few years and will always do so.....
1, to protect the envoirement
1, accountants cost saving.....
Dulux and the cheaper end of the market water based paints will go cream in col.....esp in a sunny position.....
I like the conv of water based paints but they just dont seem to last.......never used it outside.....
BUT will happily try mikeg's Bedec Multi-Surface Paint when next doing a job......
where poss on new wood for the outside I used Sikkens products stains and oily type water sealer's (not varnish)
these only need a wash and a rub with a Scotch pad for recovering.....good for 3-5 years in direct sun......
work very well in all climates but it's not cheap.....
just bought 10liters of top qual ext emusion paint for the house at nearly €80, just need to save up for another 4 tubs.....
hahaha....but it will last 15years ...rec by the locals......

 

[Northers]

TEKNOS Aquatop is now my ‘go to‘ paint for external joinery. It goes on like water, stays on and I’ve had zero issues since using it 4 years ago.

 

[johnnyb]

I reckon teknos is a good product. but applying it is a fairly specialised job and buying it in 10 20 50 years is a complete guess. alkyd paint whilst being "old hat" does have its place. a proper coachbuilt gloss invites you to admire it. my preference is opaque (oil based) woodstain (superdec) if ultimate shine isnt a concern. so many properties with timber windows have 1 sadolin or sikkens which is basically brown paint
2 coat after coat of ancient oil gloss.
how you deal with either scenario is what makes you a man!
but one thing I hate is a beautiful old (edwardian)panel door with grey matt paint. maintenance has to be a state of mind for the homeowner. it starts by nipping stuff in the bud ( cill peeling just paint that etc). 20 years is an awful long time for a coating with no maintenance and could cause severe problems even in hardwood. remember many timber windows are well over 100 years old and softwood.
linseed paint sound great but it's really finicky to apply and doesnt have a traditional "look".