What timber for front door?

[Steve Maskery]

If you are going to use Accoya, bear in mind that ordinary water-based glues like PVA do not work. They have changed the chemical nature of the wood which has resulted in the removal of some of the -OH groups, which bond to water. With them gone, water is repelled, which is why it doesn't rot. But it also means that PVA is repelled, too.
My bro is making a new door out of accoya. We glued up two pieces, clamped and left it overnight. Took the clamps off and the joint opened up as we looked at it, literally as we looked at it. I could pull the two pieces apart by hand. This was a hybrid D4 glue from Toolstation.
You do need PU.
Also, the Accoya was not that dimensionally stable, it bows just like any other wood.
I have made a few front doors in my time. A few, not lots. But the last two were redwood and I did laminate. It was a lot of work, but the results were excellent and I would not hesitate to do the same again.
On a different note, have you checked that what you are planning will be acceptable to your Building Control Officer? I think that front doors are now subject to BC regs. That may just be new builds, I don't know, but worth checking. The last thing you need is to hang your nice new door only to be told.....

 

[Geoff_S]

If you are going to use Accoya, bear in mind that ordinary water-based glues like PVA do not work. They have changed the chemical nature of the wood which has resulted in the removal of some of the -OH groups, which bond to water. With them gone, water is repelled, which is why it doesn't rot. But it also means that PVA is repelled, too.
My bro is making a new door out of accoya. We glued up two pieces, clamped and left it overnight. Took the clamps off and the joint opened up as we looked at it, literally as we looked at it. I could pull the two pieces apart by hand. This was a hybrid D4 glue from Toolstation.
You do need PU.
Also, the Accoya was not that dimensionally stable, it bows just like any other wood.
I have made a few front doors in my time. A few, not lots. But the last two were redwood and I did laminate. It was a lot of work, but the results were excellent and I would not hesitate to do the same again.
On a different note, have you checked that what you are planning will be acceptable to your Building Control Officer? I think that front doors are now subject to BC regs. That may just be new builds, I don't know, but worth checking. The last thing you need is to hang your nice new door only to be told.....

Don't use PVA? Wow, that would never have occurred to me. Thanks for that tip. A lot of effing & blinding would have occurred had I not known that!

Building control. I had better check, we have a very nosey neighbour round here with a hotline to the council.

Maybe I will laminate now

 

[Geoff_S]

So that's that bit sorted. Now for my next question.

Mortice & tenon or Domino joiner?

I've attached a picture

 

[Jacob]

Nice bit of old joinery - looks like a prime candidate for repair - replacing it a serious mistake.
Much easier, much cheaper, preserve the original, etc. Might have to plant on a few bits to make it a better fit, fill holes etc but if done properly it will fit perfectly and nobody would know.
PS don't want to be rude but from what you've said so far you haven't much idea about how to make a door, still less to copy this nice period piece.
If you set about repairing it, possibly partial or whole dismantling on the bench, by the time you've got it back together again you will know how it's done. In fact repairing is the best possible way to learn this stuff.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Why laminate Accoya? Its whole USP is that it is dimensionally stable.

Except it is not. We had some that bent like a banana after being ripped.

 

[Doug71]

Why laminate Accoya? Its whole USP is that it is dimensionally stable.

Except it is not. We had some that bent like a banana after being ripped.

The dimensionally stable thing does cause a bit of confusion, Accoya can bend like any other wood when you cut it down because of internal tension. The dimensionally stable bit only refers to it not moving when it gains or loses moisture.

 

[MikeG.]

So that's that bit sorted. Now for my next question.

Mortice & tenon or Domino joiner?

I've attached a picture

Why on earth wouldn't you just repair that beautiful door?

How long do you think a door would last if you just dominoed it together? If you are going to go to all the trouble of making a new door (I don't think you should), then at least do it properly.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

So that's that bit sorted. Now for my next question.

Mortice & tenon or Domino joiner?

I've attached a picture

Why on earth wouldn't you just repair that beautiful door?

+1 - It's definitely worthy of 'repair' rather than 'replace'

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Why laminate Accoya? Its whole USP is that it is dimensionally stable.

Except it is not. We had some that bent like a banana after being ripped.

The dimensionally stable thing does cause a bit of confusion, Accoya can bend like any other wood when you cut it down because of internal tension. The dimensionally stable bit only refers to it not moving when it gains or loses moisture.

I think this is consistent with the point I was making upthread - I think they're struggling to find good quality timber as input to the process.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Definitely repair it if you can.
if you decide to make new, the question of trad M&T or Domino? It depends.
if you have excellent hand skills like Mike, or excellent machine and jig setup like me, then go the trad route. But if you don't have those skills yet A Domino xl will help you to make a fine door. A well - made Domino door will be better than a poorly - made trad one.
Horses for courses and all that.

 

[Jacob]

Dominos wouldn't hold that design together. It's pushing it already - having narrow stiles, narrow top rail, heavy glazing. Which is why it's sagged - not enough glued area in the mortices and tenons - especially the lock and bottom rails.
Could do with pinning through the M&Ts if it was repaired and the tenons are strong enough. Draw-boring would perhaps break out but pinning after a good glue up and still cramped, would be OK.

 

[Geoff_S]

I thought about repair, but here are the challenges.

The top rail width is 95mm on the left, 105mm on the right and a big gap of 20mm to the top right of the door.

The bottom rail is 245mm on the left and 235mm on the right, so the opposite of the top rail. It is also made of 2 pieces 120mm wide approximately, glued together.

The left-hand stile is 2250mm the right-hand stile is 2235mm.

The left-hand and right-hand stiles are a consistent 105mm wide, but the right-hand stile is twisted running out 10mm from top to bottom.

The top centre stile has about 5mm of filler at the top.

The 3 joints down the left-hand side have about 10mm width of filler.

The glass is definitely period but looking at the amount of hacking that has been done to the door, I’m not so sure about the door itself being period. Bits of it might be.

A lot of things in this house over the 25 years that I have lived here clearly indicate to me that cowboys existed in Victorian times as well and in the decades following. It’s not a new thing.

I do understand that a lot of things are repairable but is this particular project worth the effort? All things die in the end.

 

[Jacob]

It looks 100% original and I'd repair/restore it without question, with a temporary door in place. Might involve a proportion of new material in there but you would be carefully copying existing and in the process make good all the badly fitting bits. At least you know that the M&Ts aren't firmly fixed and will probably come apart easily!
If the worst came to the worst you might end up replacing the whole thing but by copying it exactly on the bench, with corrections for where it doesn't fit

 

[Steve Maskery]

There is no difference at all in strength between a Domino joint and a "proper" M&T joint of the same dimensions. Just don't assume that one domino in those sections will be enough. But you can make the mortices longer and either double up the Doms, or cut you own floating tenons. And you can also cut double tenons easier than with conventional techniques.
On a door like that you could use the Domino machine to cut the mortices right through, by working from each side. Then square up with a chisel for a more authentic appearance.

FWIW, this is how I made a couple of very big doors, at least as big and heavy as yours.
post1067733.html#p1067733
I have to make half a dozen interior doors. If it were just one I do the proper M&T, but 6? I've bought a big Dom. Not used it yet, but I have no doubt that I shall end up with excellent doors that are made in half the time.

Domino is a tool, it's not a religion

 

[Jacob]

....
Domino is a tool, it's not a religion

Domino is a gadget and can never be as good as a proper M&T

 

[Steve Maskery]

Domino is a gadget and can never be as good as a proper M&T

A hollow-chisel mortiser is a gadget and can never be as good as chisel and mallet

An electric drill is a gadget and can never be as good as a proper brace and bit

A router is a gadget and can never be as good as a moulding plane

.....

 

[Jacob]

Point missed - they are labour saving devices but the domino doesn't produce a proper M&T. Especially not for a door like this one where you need as much glued surface as possible, full sized tenons going right through, and wedges to stop them being pulled out.
Domino OK for light work, but an expensive gadget nevertheless!

 

[sammy.se]

Here's a way I've seen a domino being used for a door.
Domino XL, custom large tenon (domino).


https://youtu.be/7DFmZ8dbk1k

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[dzj]

Does anyone know the name of that mid-rail to stile joint?

 

[AndyT]

Picking up Steve's point about building regs... I'm not an expert by any stretch but I think I've read discussions on here about the need for a new front door to achieve a minimum U-value to be allowed. That might mean that if you want to keep the glass you could repair the door (so the regs wouldn't apply.)
Otherwise, you'd need to do something clever enclosing the glass in a DG unit and having thicker panels.

But don't take my word for it, this is really just a prompt for someone who knows this stuff to chip in.