What timber for front door?

[Jacob]

Looking at the photo - just a thought - can't quite tell - is that a bit of brass or something on the right hand side of the lock rail, where the spindle for the original door knobs and rim latch would have gone? If so it's possible that someone tried to fit a mortice latch instead and chopped through the M&Ts weakening one of the two most important joints and causing the door to sag? I've seen it done.
In which case you might need to make a complete new lock rail. Easy peasy just copy the old one!

 

[Geoff_S]

Looking at the photo - just a thought - can't quite tell - is that a bit of brass or something on the right hand side of the lock rail, where the spindle for the original door knobs and rim latch would have gone? If so it's possible that someone tried to fit a mortice latch instead and chopped through the M&Ts weakening one of the two most important joints and causing the door to sag? I've seen it done.
In which case you might need to make a complete new lock rail. Easy peasy just copy the old one!

No, it's just a simple bolt that holds a static door knob on the front.

 

[Trevanion]

Ah, since the glass comes out easily I would definitely make a new door, you’d just be wasting your time trying to repair it because you’ll be in exactly the same position in a couple of years time. The door itself isn’t of any real historical significance and can be replicated very easily with rudimentary equipment to a high standard, the glass is priceless and irreplaceable.

Make a completely new door or bodge the existing one for about the same amount of work? I know which one I would choose every time.

 

[Noel]

Ah, since the glass comes out easily I would definitely make a new door, you’d just be wasting your time trying to repair it because you’ll be in exactly the same position in a couple of years time. The door itself isn’t of any real historical significance and can be replicated very easily with rudimentary equipment to a high standard, the glass is priceless and irreplaceable.

Make a completely new door or bodge the existing one for about the same amount of work? I know which one I would choose every time.

What would the hours (or I guess also the cost if I'm not being too nosey) be T from start to finish to build a similar door? Or similar to the New Yorkshire Workshop video door?

 

[Trevanion]

What would the hours (or I guess also the cost if I'm not being too nosey) be T from start to finish to build a similar door? Or similar to the New Yorkshire Workshop video door?

Without seeing what the outside looks like and without all the pissing about with a gunstock rail, and without taking profiles and etc into account? I reckon with the equipment I use you could have the door complete (to the standard set up) in around 8-10 hours without paint, it’s the painting and the niggles afterwards that takes a lot of time the actual manufacturing is quite rapid comparatively.

Off the top of my head... Just for the raw door with no finish would be around £200ish for the labour and then £150-200 or so in material so say all in all it’s £400 for the door itself. Of course, making the door like for like with gunstock, the exact same mouldings and scribes etc would cost much more, at least twice as much.

 

[sammy.se]

£400 for a Victorian style wooden door seems like great value to me. I'd be lucky to find those prices in London.

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[Jacob]

£400 for a Victorian style wooden door seems like great value to me. I'd be lucky to find those prices in London.

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If you have a simpler design to hand and the timber then you could do it, supplied not fitted.
If you wanted to copy that one perfectly and finish the job - £2k or more.
You've got to get there and survey it. Take it away, supply fit temporary door. Make new door, possibly need to make some spindle cutters too. Have the glass serviced by a pro glass man (they can do a lot to bring it back into good condition). Bring it back - fit door, source supply and fit hardware. Paint with primer.
Could be same sort of price to restore it - more to it than just repair.
PS add £500 for contingencies - who knows what else may need sorting. Though most clients would accept that part of the risk, quite sensibly.
PPS thorough restoration wouldn't involve filler and similar except for minor blemishes. You'd expect to scarf in with new wood or completely replace whole components.
US baltic redwood throughout, which is almost certainly what the original is.

 

[sammy.se]

That's more like the price I was expecting :-D

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[Jacob]

Looking at the photo - just a thought - can't quite tell - is that a bit of brass or something on the right hand side of the lock rail, where the spindle for the original door knobs and rim latch would have gone? If so it's possible that someone tried to fit a mortice latch instead and chopped through the M&Ts weakening one of the two most important joints and causing the door to sag? I've seen it done.
In which case you might need to make a complete new lock rail. Easy peasy just copy the old one!

No, it's just a simple bolt that holds a static door knob on the front.

Is it the original knob? I'd expect knobs in same position but with a rim latch, not morticed.

 

[deema]

I’m the diverse opinion here! The door is poorly made, the dimensions of the styles and rails is not IMO adequate for the job they are being asked to do.

I thought 105mm stiles and top rail was fairly substantial, my standard ones are 95mm :?. Any bigger and the wood overpowers everything else.

Diminished stile doors are nice and all but they're a right pain in the neck to make even for someone with a lot of experience, it would blow a beginner's mind :lol:.

I’m not sure you have noticed that the door is 1 metre wide or in my money a little over 3’3”. I would definitely use as a minimum styles that are at least 5” or 125mm wide. The door looks out of balance and is warping because it’s too heavy / too much leverage on the short thin tenons and the sections are too thin. It would also be better made from 2 1/4” or 58mm thick rather than the present 50mm.

It’s also nearly 8’ tall, it’s a big door for its design!

 

[deema]

For the size of door you need to use something a little better than redwood which will be too soft to hold it square IMO. DF would be my preferred choice.

I’m not a Domino owner, however, for the leverage that the joints will experience you will I believe need fully haunched double tenons on the bottom and middle rail possibly twin double tenons if you thicken up the door. The muntins will also need to be properly Tenoned into the bottom and middle rails.

To achieve the holding the styles need to be wider at the bottom of the door, hence the use of diminishing styles and a gun stock tenon.

It would be interesting to see the design of the outside of the door, it’s probably got planted on mouldings around the panels and possibly around the lights.

 

[Dibs-h]

DF would be my preferred choice.

Sorry if it's a dumb question - what's DF?

Cheers

Dibs

 

[MikeG.]

DF would be my preferred choice.

Sorry if it's a dumb question - what's DF?

Cheers

Dibs

Douglas Fir

 

[Dibs-h]

Cheers Mike!

 

[Trevanion]

I’m not sure you have noticed that the door is 1 metre wide or in my money a little over 3’3”. I would definitely use as a minimum styles that are at least 5” or 125mm wide. The door looks out of balance and is warping because it’s too heavy / too much leverage on the short thin tenons and the sections are too thin. It would also be better made from 2 1/4” or 58mm thick rather than the present 50mm.

It’s also nearly 8’ tall, it’s a big door for its design!

I did notice the size measurements, it is a big girl :wink:. I can see exactly where you're coming from regarding having larger stiles to compensate for sag because really, that's what should be the case in an ideal world for both strength and aesthetics. I don't think I've ever actually seen any house doors with stiles that were any more than around 4" though, definitely seen some doors like gothic style ones for churches and the like that were a bit more substantial.

This one on the bench is an Accoya door, 3' 2" x 6' 8". 95mm stiles and top rail, 200mm lock and bottom rails, 55mm thick. Double skinned with 20mm boards with insulation in-between so it's whompingly heavy (Guesstimate of around 60-70KGs . And to add insult to injury the lock rail has been morticed away which is a cardinal sin to the hardcore traditionalists :lol:.

I've never had any similar ones fail, with modern glues and strong, traditional construction, it's not going to keep me up at night. But who knows, in a few years I might be eating my hat. :wink: I wonder if Geoff's door failed because there wasn't any glue (or very poor glue) on the joints and were only held in place with wedges like many of the era?

 

[deema]

Nice doors, are the panels floating or actually structural?
Here a pair of French doors with lights above that I made that are 33” wide and 6’6” tall. The styles are 5” wide. The bottom rail is 9” and the middle is 7”. They are made from European oak.

The original door in question at 100 years old would have I believe relied purely on the wedges as glue options were rather minimal.

 

[simuk]

Made this one door and frame a few year ago out of Sapele using traditional M&T,s.

 

[Jacob]

....
The original door in question at 100 years old would have I believe relied purely on the wedges as glue options were rather minimal.

If water doesn't get to it animal glue lasts for 100s of years. Spent half my life sorting out old and very old joinery!

 

[Trevanion]

Nice doors, are the panels floating or actually structural?
Here a pair of French doors with lights above that I made that are 33” wide and 6’6” tall. The styles are 5” wide. The bottom rail is 9” and the middle is 7”. They are made from European oak.

The external boards ones are kind of structural in that they're laid into a rebate which goes from the top rail to the bottom rail passing over the lock rail, spaced evenly with silicone in the grooves and then stuck and nailed to the rebate and the lock rail. The internal boards are floating and are laid into the cavity behind the external boards with a sheet of foil bubble insulation shiny side facing in which goes in between the external and internal boards, the internal boards are then dovetail nailed to the external ones. I have done doors with flush boards on both sides to allow a 25mm celotex sheet inbetween but that is a bit overkill to be honest and doesn't look as nice in my opinion.

That's a very nice pair of french doors, was that prime grade oak? Very few knots from what I can see. I wish I had a photo of a door that's similar to the door in my previous photo but in joinery grade European oak, looked stunning with the pippy knots and it's held up pretty well as I was a little concerned the timber would move quite a bit going from early dry summer to really wet autumn, but I made my best effort to get the best stability-wise pieces of timber out of what I had to make it. That one was seriously heavy. :lol:

 

[Sgian Dubh]

This is the door I am replacing. It's dropped badly as you can see, the frame is perfect 90 degrees. The lock rail is packed with filler to the left.

Maybe it's because I'm a furniture man rather than a joiner, but the intersection between the lock rail and the stile looks visually strange to me. Can someone help me out with what's going on? Here's what I see, so please correct any errors I make.

Visually, it seems to me that the stile isn't truly diminishing at the lock rail point and, from this view anyway, it has an angled shoulder line going from the glazed top side of the rail to the bottom panelled side. But visually this makes the upper part of the stile appear wider than the lower part, although I don't think that's actually the case, and further, to my eyes, this makes the stile look uncomfortably top heavy.

I've only made a very few architectural doors over all my years bashing wood, and probably only one or two with diminished stiles (gunstock), and in each case the diminishment of the stiles went from wider at the bottom to narrower above the lock rail. Similarly, that's always been the way they've been made in every instance of diminished stile doors I've come across.

My question regarding this door with what I think isn't a diminished stile anyway is: is this, to my eyes what is a visually uncomfortable angling of the lock rail shoulder lines a common standard joinery technique? Slainte.