What is "pre-stain conditioner" called in the UK?

[piesforyou]

Hello, just a quick question. The internet is full of advice for when staining softwoods - use a pre-stain conditioner! However this term seems to be American. What is the equivalent product in the UK?

Thanks!

 

[Woodfinish Man]

Never heard of 'pre-stain conditioner' any more information?

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Never heard of 'pre-stain conditioner' any more information?

I came across this stuff when I lived in the US. It was, for example, part of the Minwax range of finishes, mostly aimed at the DIYer rather than professionals. Their oil based stains are dye with a pigment element and a binder, eg linseed oil or touch of varnish, to lodge in open pores, hence the name stain as opposed to dye.

Minwax sold a pre-conditioner that you applied prior to putting the stain on and you applied the stain within about 1/2 an hour. The pre-conditioner's main job was to reduce or prevent blotching in blotch prone woods, eg, maple, cherry, pine, etc. As far as I could ever work out this pre-conditioner was mostly white spirits (mineral spirits as the Americans call it). The idea I think was that because the wood grain was partially choked with white spirits, particular the exposed ends of vascular tissue that hit the wood surface at an acute angle, the stain wouldn't absorb into those parts so well, thus leading to a more even colouring up job.

The truth is that I don't think this pre-conditioner is essential. You can get a similar blocking effect by applying a thin (or even very thin) coat of shellac and sanding it back pretty well leaving those severed ends of the vascular tissue partially blocked. Thus, when you apply the colourant, dye or stain, the uptake is reduced in those partially choked spots.

On a side note, one good element of finishing products and writing in the US is that dyes are dyes and stains contain pigment and a binder-- easy to tell apart which is unlike here in the UK where the manufacturer's terminology seems sloppy nowadays as is, I suppose, those writers that discuss finishing subjects in books, magazines, etc: it didn't used to be when I started because in my mind dyes and stains have always been different formulations to achieve different end results. It just seems to be that the manufacturers here in the UK no longer differentiate between the two and everything is labelled 'stain'. You have to look really hard to determine if it's pigment stain with or without dye and a binder, or dye alone without either the pigmentsor binder. Slainte.

 

[Terry Smart]

That was pretty much my guess - the porosity of some timbers will vary from area to area in the same piece, which will lead to a blotchy effect when staining them; porous areas will soak up more stain and look darker, less porous areas won't and will appear lighter.

Normal advice is, as stated, to take a sanding sealer and thin it down about 50/50 (shellac or cellulose are suitable for this) which partially seals the porous parts whilst having little effect on the rest. End result is a more even colour when staining.

With regard to names, for some reason during the '80's the DIY industry adopted the word stain to refer to a pigmented coating, often microporous for use on exterior woodwork; it referred to a product that was a finish in its own right. Dyes became simply any other item that colours wood.
I think the confusion started then and has only got worse!

 

[piesforyou]

I see. So there isn't really an equivalent product.

Never heard of 'pre-stain conditioner' any more information?

You just have to put something like "how to stain wood" into google, and most (american) websites will say it's essential to use a pre-stain conditioner on softwoods.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

With regard to names, for some reason during the '80's the DIY industry adopted the word stain to refer to a pigmented coating, often microporous for use on exterior woodwork...

I think the confusion started then and has only got worse!

Terry, I've always known that stuff as paint, albeit lightly pigmented paint, even though it's usually labelled something like 'stain varnish', ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[diyfiesta]

I’ve never used shellac or sanding sealer as I’m new to finishing, could you use just white spirit without sanding? I’m thinking if the US conditioner stuff is mostly spirits, what else is in it?

If not, could you recommend a shellac or sanding sealer product (can’t find anything obvious). Thanks

 

[Just4Fun]

Recently I used shelac prior to applying dye to pine. One thing I learned from that is that the sanding stage is essential. Don't skip it or the dye doesn't "take" properly.

 

[diyfiesta]

I spotted this “sanding sealer” Shellac Sanding Sealer | Rustins which says on the blurb is shellac and alcohol. It says it’s usually used to seal stain (which I assume means after staining).

If I use this as describe about (shellac then sand) would I aim to sand it all back? Take of the smooth finish? Would it leave the fibres clogged enough for an even layer of stain?

 

[Cabinetman]

I spotted this “sanding sealer” Shellac Sanding Sealer | Rustins which says on the blurb is shellac and alcohol. It says it’s usually used to seal stain (which I assume means after staining).

If I use this as describe about (shellac then sand) would I aim to sand it all back? Take of the smooth finish? Would it leave the fibres clogged enough for an even layer of stain?

As Richard said, Thin down either French polish or sanding sealer normally with methylated spirits this will block those areas that would soak up the stain/dye too much, shellac is the base ingredient for French polish and sanding sealer and is normally mixed with methylated spirits which evaporates quickly leaving the shellac on the surface and into those open pores which is what you want, you don’t particularly want it on the ordinary flat surface of the timber so that is why you are sanding it back, obviously you won’t be able to sand back what has gone into those open pores, which is good as that’s how it works to stop the dye. Ian

 

[MARK.B.]

Chestnut do -Acrylic -shellac and cellulose sanding sealers