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I think manual dexterity is actually quite a complicated thing.

A good proportion of my childhood and young adolescence was spent making things. Models, mostly, especially model railways. Some of the models were frankly not up to much, but some were quite presentable, and (though I maybe flatter myself) would stand comparison with the work of much more established modellers. I was good at school woodwork, too - and enjoyed it.

Later, in my twenties, and the owner of my first house, I came back to woodwork, partly out of necessity. Nothing fancy, but I've always wanted something a bit better than bog standard chipboard. So projects ranged from shelves in the cupboard under the stairs to new bannisters, newels and handrails for the stairs and landing (wonder if they're still there?). A bench and toolchest followed - they taught me how not to build a bench and toolchest - together with the usual boxes and similar bits and bats. A miniature Windsor chair still graces my mum's wall unit, together with the little teddy bear she bought for it. I became heavily involved in the preserved railway scene, mainly on the mechanical side, but the wood skills came in very handy there on a few occasions.

That all meant that sharpening was a necessity. In the very early days I bought a double-sided Norton India and an Emir box, and an Eclipse jig. For some reason, I just didn't get on with the jig, and in frustration, freehanded. The results were OK, so I just carried on. I used to sharpen tools for my mates at work, too, and never had any complaints; did get a few pints out of it, so results can't have been too shabby.

Reading the magazines of the day led me to try waterstones, and they taught me what 'sharp' really was. I can still remember the revelation of first using the bevel-edged chisel I'd just honed on the brand new 6000 grit stone - wow! The mess of waterstones led me to try Spyderco ceramics, and I used them for years, just lately coming back to the India and trying a Welsh slate for polishing. All those were used freehand.

Thing is, I took to freehanding very easily. Maybe the early years of model-making built up a sort of manual dexterity, or maybe I'm just blessed that way. I don't know. I do know that I'm utterly useless at sports - tennis, cricket, squash, even football - tried 'em all, and no matter how I try, I miss the ball more often than I hit it. I'm not that good at snooker or pool, either. But I do seem to be reasonably adept with tools; I very rarely cut myself with kitchen knives, for example (tempting fate, there!).

Maybe there are different sorts of manual dexterity. Maybe it's something you have to learn when you're young, or find it takes longer to pick up that dexterity the older you get. I don't know. As with so many aspects of life, different people, different ways.

Maybe if you're a 14-year old apprentice, you can afford a year or two to develop dexterity. Maybe if you're a middle-aged chap looking for a bit of peaceful respite from a stressful job for a couple of hours a week, you can't, or you wouldn't get anything else done.

So if you don't happen to have the particular type of manual dexterity that freehand sharpening demands, and you don't have the time to develop it, use the available solutions to the problem. If you do happen to have that particular dexterity, then great - carry on.


(PS - That little Eclipse jig and it's clones are pretty simple, straightforward inexpensive and versatile. It's as good a starting point for the non-freehander as any.)
 
Cheshirechappie":3uqqj6yj said:
......
So if you don't happen to have the particular type of manual dexterity that freehand sharpening demands, and you don't have the time to develop it, use the available solutions to the problem. If you do happen to have that particular dexterity, then great - carry on.....
If you don't have the "manual dexterity" for the simple process of freehand sharpening you are going to be really stuck when it comes to something more difficult - like doing actual woodwork!
 
I think manual dexterity is actually quite a complicated thing ...

If you saw my seventeen y. o. handle a tool - any tool - it would reinforce that. He's cack handed to start with, but within seconds of his picking a tool up I think I don't know you're trying to do, but I do know it will not work. :lol:
 
Gents
1. Just because someone passionately believes something does not make it right.
2. Arguments do not get better by repetition.
3. Just because someone believes that modern high end tool manufacturers are snake oil salesmen does not make it true.
The problem for this site is that people get to the point of not commenting because it is wearisome that one person always wants to have the last word and will not accept there are other ways. It puts many people off commenting or even visiting the site.
Worse still people will read this crap and believe it to be a reflection of the art.
In 20 years time these polarised views will become evidence of how woodworking was done.
We need to get beyond these wearisome polarised debates and let the full breadth of knowledge be stated and discussed otherwise sites like this will wither and we will be left with Youtube video's of 'I have never done woodworking but here goes'
 
phil.p":gn1rekn9 said:
I think manual dexterity is actually quite a complicated thing ...

If you saw my seventeen y. o. handle a tool - any tool - it would reinforce that. He's cack handed to start with, but within seconds of his picking a tool up I think I dont know you're trying to do, but I do know it will not work. :lol:

Indeed - two sorts of people; those who, given the tools, will finish the job; and those who, given the job, will finish the tools....
 
Jacob":2udkdaoo said:
Cheshirechappie":2udkdaoo said:
......
So if you don't happen to have the particular type of manual dexterity that freehand sharpening demands, and you don't have the time to develop it, use the available solutions to the problem. If you do happen to have that particular dexterity, then great - carry on.....
If you don't have the "manual dexterity" for the simple process of freehand sharpening you are going to be really stuck when it comes to something more difficult - like doing actual woodwork!

You can't remember what it's like not having dexterity. Lucky you. Just spare a thought for those who's talents lie in other directions. We need all sorts to make a world, and some of the sorts who contribute to the good of the world using their minds rather than their hands choose to relax by doing something you've done for most of your adolescence and adult life, give them some leeway. You might not find it so easy being a GP or a Chartered Engineer. How do you fancy having a go at designing a mobile phone network, or an oil refinery? No? Best stick to what you're good at, be happy that you're better at that than others, and be happy that others are better at many things than you are.

Different people, different ways - and if we all do what we're good at, the total world is better for humanity than the sum of the parts.
 
Cheshirechappie":3fecsldv said:
Jacob":3fecsldv said:
Cheshirechappie":3fecsldv said:
......
So if you don't happen to have the particular type of manual dexterity that freehand sharpening demands, and you don't have the time to develop it, use the available solutions to the problem. If you do happen to have that particular dexterity, then great - carry on.....
If you don't have the "manual dexterity" for the simple process of freehand sharpening you are going to be really stuck when it comes to something more difficult - like doing actual woodwork!

You can't remember what it's like not having dexterity. Lucky you. .......
Of course I can remember being utterly carp at woodwork and all sorts of other things too!
I just don't see sharpening as the most difficult of the difficult things you have to learn. In fact it's one of the easiest and is certainly the most essential.
I'd equate freehand sharpening as about as difficult as sharpening a pencil with a knife. Even that is difficult for beginners - unavoidably there's a bit of a learning curve.
 
No I am suggesting you are stupid not to realise that all people are not the same and keep banging on about how easy free hand sharpening is.


Pete
 
No Pete Maddex, probably not, it's simply that Jacob simply has the same problem as my wife (hope she doesn't read this!) - whatever, whenever, she just MUST have the last word. (Rule 2: "When you're wrong then Rule 1 applies") :D

I'd have used the hammer up there, but in this case it simply wears my arm out!
 
On a lighter note...

A bloke has been struggling to learn hand sharpening all day and is stressed, sore, almost blind with over concentration and mentally and physically exhausted by it all.

He gets in the bath for a long hot soak and re considers his options.

A little later his 5 year old son wanders into the bathroom

"Hello Daddy"

" Hi Son"

Son stares into the water..

"Whats that daddy"

"Err, that's a Hedgehog son"

Pause...

"He's got a big willy hasn't he daddy"
 
Pete Maddex":339eii1d said:
No I am suggesting you are stupid not to realise that all people are not the same and keep banging on about how easy free hand sharpening is.


Pete
It's difficult if you try to freehand one flat primary bevel and then one flat secondary bevel.
It's easy (for anybody) if they forget the two flat bevel convention and just relax into a slightly rounded single bevel with the edge about 30º, as per Paul Sellers' youtube demo. Put some welly into it and even coarse grinding a chip out of a wide blade becomes viable.
You can do it too Pete!
 
I repeat, "see what I mean?"

Sometimes it's amusing, sometimes aggravating, but mostly it just "quickly) becomes boring.
 
Jacob":17bqxoat said:
Pete Maddex":17bqxoat said:
No I am suggesting you are stupid not to realise that all people are not the same and keep banging on about how easy free hand sharpening is.


Pete
It's difficult if you try to freehand one flat primary bevel and then one flat secondary bevel.
It's easy (for anybody) if they forget the two flat bevel convention and just relax into a slightly rounded single bevel with the edge about 30º, as per Paul Sellers' youtube demo. Put some welly into it and even coarse grinding a chip out of a wide blade becomes viable.
You can do it too Pete!

Tedious extremely tedious.

Pete
 
I don't form a single rounded bevel like Jacob. I register the primary bevel on the stone then raise the angle a few degrees to form a separate secondary bevel. To me after some persiverance it's now very simple and quick with excellent results.

John
 
andys wood shed":31xfjcil said:
I think Honing guides are like stabilisers on a bike

Hmm. I can sharpen freehand with no problem at all, but I can't ride a bike more than a few feet without falling off. Am I odd?*

* Yeah - I know that's an open goal, but what the heck! I'll just not log in for a few days....
 
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