What improvements do you think i could make to my jig?

[hlvd]

Norm Abram had a small Hitachi resaw he’d use for sawing veneers. It was only the same size as a 12” bandsaw but took a 3” blade.

 

[Inspector]

Norm Abram had a small Hitachi resaw he’d use for sawing veneers. It was only the same size as a 12” bandsaw but took a 3” blade.

That Hitachi actually had 16" wheels much like the Makita (had one) and Ryobi versions of the time. Blades were thinner than normal and has Stellite tips. They were meant for job site sawing of softwoods used in Shoji screens and timber buildings. That wood was the best they could get from Western Canada and the US, no knots and perfectly straight grain. The don't work so well on hardwoods.

Pete

 

[woodbrains]

Not if you've got a Woodmaster CT, and a saw up to tensioning it!
*other carbide tipped blades are available
Some of John Teneyck's post's (his pics aren't held hostage by Creekers paywall)
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?299145-Slicing-Veneer-with-the-Amazing-Woodmaster-CT
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?280590-The-Incredible-Woodmaster-CT

Hello,

It is funny when people tell you something can't be done, when you've been doing it for years.

I'm not sure if people don't belive what they read or don't read things properly, but when I said earlier that I had cut and lain veneers straight from the saw, and was taught to do so (others clearly were doing the same and passing on the knowledge) I really meant it.

Mike.

 

[Ttrees]

Hello,

It is funny when people tell you something can't be done, when you've been doing it for years.

I'm not sure if people don't belive what they read or don't read things properly, but when I said earlier that I had cut and lain veneers straight from the saw, and was taught to do so (others clearly were doing the same and passing on the knowledge) I really meant it.

Mike.

I guess having the right machine for the job, might be seen as OTT?...

That Grizzly 17" saw, being much much stouter than anything of that size whats ever been marketed here, with a chassis made from 4.5mm thick steel!
so one would need jump to the stouter Italian flavour of 20" or something larger again to comfortably run such a blade.
John's results aren't to be scoffed at, that's for sure...
yet many want new, shiny and expensive...rather than old, very cheap and likely needing a VFD,
or whatever... plus some elbow grease.

Glad the first new machine I had briefly was a lemon, which the UK reps nor shopkeeper could sort,
so had to chose the sensible route in the end.

Awaiting someone on this forum to get some cheapo carbide blades, seems from another
post, some are buying M42 blades for much cheaper on those slightly dodgy websites...

I wonder if they have seen Tai-Fu's post's on the Creek, concerning cheap carbide blades?
Nearly sounds too good to be true.
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?293321-Chinese-carbide-bandsaw-blades

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

It is funny when people tell you something can't be done, when you've been doing it for years.

I'm not sure if people don't belive what they read or don't read things properly, but when I said earlier that I had cut and lain veneers straight from the saw, and was taught to do so (others clearly were doing the same and passing on the knowledge) I really meant it.

Mike.

How did you do it without the adjustable fence gadget?

 

[woodbrains]

How did you do it without the adjustable fence gadget?

Hello,

Tall fence hand power and some fiddly fence adjusting. First I did it on some old American cast iron. As I posted earlier a big 36in Yeats American and an Oliver. They could tension any blade. I dare say they could just be tensioned to make any blade snap, without straining the frame.

I have also used one of those Hitachi resaws mentioned above. They ran a 3 inch Stellite blade directly on crowned steel wheels, no tyres. My friend in America had one. It was powered by a brush motor originally, which wailed unacceptably, so he had it converted to a big induction motor. The frame was built like a tank, though, so tensioning the 3 inch blade was easy. Satellite is not quite as hard at tungsten carbide, but not as brittle, so takes knocks and hidden debris in the wood better. I used it to make veneer out if some pretty hard Jatoba to make a bed.

My saw now is not dissimilar to that Grizzly in the post above, a 21 inch I think. Have not used a carbide blade on it though, but M42 are pretty good.

Mike.

 

[Hornbeam]

I cut quite a lot of bandsawn veneers and laminates. Standard practice is to set a tall fence on the left hand side of the bade to cut the thickness required. Plane the timber flat and sqare on the face that will run against the fence and the face that runs on the table.
Slice of a veneer and then run the sawn face of the timber over the planer. Repeat
This way there is no need to adjust the fence between cuts, all veneers are the same thickness and all venneres have 1 planed surfac. If everything is well set up you will lose about 2 to 2.5 between the bandsaw blade kerf and the surface planing. Veneers can be laid straight off the saw on the planed side
I now run all the planed veneers through a drum sander to clean up the sawn side as well although this is not an absolute requirement unless bookmatching where one veneer would be laid cut surface down
Veneers can and are often laid with just a sawn surface but I think it is better to prepare the glued surface (just my opinion
The designed jig may work very well but, You need to reset the fence after every cut and in effect you are working from 2 reference faces so more room for error ( think like using a biscuit jointer you try and work from your face ore edge side)
Another consideration is safety. When cutting veneers the way described above The blade is at the back of the board being cut and I am happy to support the board close to the bade as I have the full thickness of the board between the blade and the pressure point (not my fingers would still be a couple of inches in front of the blade) The approach with this jig means that I would only have a couple of mm thickness on every slice
To the jig designer, I am sorry if this sounds negative but it is just my opinion. Good luck with your A level
Ian

 

[Elisha Nichols]

Surely the jig is effectively a micro adjustable fence in itself and you don't need the other fence?
If I had a good enough blade I'd simply cut veneers between fence and blade. I'd set it against gauge marks on the workpiece and not need to set it again until I wanted to change the thickness.

i think you're missing the point, this is my alevel project. And its not as simple as you are making out, theres alot more to consider and do, to make sure you dont waste materials/waste as little as possible.

 

[Elisha Nichols]

I think it’s a neat idea, for those who didn’t read the first post fully, the jig sits in the mitre slot which she highlights, that keeps it straight and true. She also explains that you slide the jig back out of the way before making a cut, its for set up only, so nothing gets trapped when being cut.
I would make it from plastic with anodised aluminium bits where necessary. Do I think it would sell? Yes. Like every good prototype, you’ve admirable demonstrated its functionality and its utility. In all seriousness consider approaching a company such as Trend to make it with you getting a royalty for everyone they sell.

Thank you so much for your help! I will look into different polymers and the anodised aluminium. Thanks for your time. - Elisha.

 

[Jacob]

Oddly enough I was talking to a friend today about her design education. One of her tutors had said that the "product" was not as important as the process.
This is what we see here - a lot of attention to the design process of an otherwise useless product. OK it's a point of view in an educational environment I suppose.
I wonder if Elisha would get higher marks if she not only designed a working product but also showed that it was not in any way an improvement on the usual methods, which she had also researched.
Also it would be a more professional approach - to point out the defects of a clients proposal even if it meant losing the job.

Keep ahead of the game - just say no to useless gadgets!

 

[hlvd]

i think you're missing the point, this is my alevel project. And its not as simple as you are making out, theres alot more to consider and do, to make sure you dont waste materials/waste as little as possible.

I think you’re missing the point here Elisha, you’re dismissing the opinions of people who have many years experience of doing this for a living.
I explained in my previous post your jig is perhaps flawed, and even suggested an alternative that might be a better idea.

 

[woodbrains]

I think you’re missing the point here Elisha, you’re dismissing the opinions of people who have many years experience of doing this for a living.
I explained in my previous post your jig is perhaps flawed, and even suggested an alternative that might be a better idea.

Oddly enough I was talking to a friend today about her design education. One of her tutors had said that the "product" was not as important as the process.
This is what we see here - a lot of attention to the design process of an otherwise useless product. OK it's a point of view in an educational environment I suppose.
I wonder if Elisha would get higher marks if she not only designed a working product but also showed that it was not in any way an improvement on the usual methods, which she had also researched.
Also it would be a more professional approach - to point out the defects of a clients proposal even if it meant losing the job.

Keep ahead of the game - just say no to useless gadgets!

Hello,

For heaven's sake fellas, cut the young woman some slack.

She clearly has to design and make something; she can't get an A level by saying there is no point doing it any differently than the old farts here say they do it.

Has it not occurred to you that your objections are based purely on the supposition that her device won't work. You have not seen or tried the likes before, so you are just guessing. Perhaps you should assume that Elisha has made a rough mock up, that actually is showing some promise to work the way she intends. Enough to build a more refined prototype. If you have no thoughts on any modification or improvement she might incorporate, I'm not sure why you are commenting at all. Telling her that you don't cut veneer as she intends and she is essentially wasting her time is pointless.

Also, have you ever thought that Elisha may not think the jig is a good idea, or may not be a woodworker and never have a use for the device herself? That has nothing to do with her clients desire for it. She just has to design the thing and have it work successfully enough to satisfy the brief set to her. Designers do not have to like the products they design, just do it well and with integrity.

There has been enough evidence given by others here, that cutting veneers that can be laid straight from the bandsaw is achievable. Perhaps the realisation that there are other ways to achieve a result hasn't dawned on some people.

Mike.

 

[hlvd]

Hello,

For heaven's sake fellas, cut the young woman some slack.

She clearly has to design and make something; she can't get an A level by saying there is no point doing it any differently than the old farts here say they do it.

Has it not occurred to you that your objections are based purely on the supposition that her device won't work. You have not seen or tried the likes before, so you are just guessing. Perhaps you should assume that Elisha has made a rough mock up, that actually is showing some promise to work the way she intends. Enough to build a more refined prototype. If you have no thoughts on any modification or improvement she might incorporate, I'm not sure why you are commenting at all. Telling her that you don't cut veneer as she intends and she is essentially wasting her time is pointless.

Also, have you ever thought that Elisha may not think the jig is a good idea, or may not be a woodworker and never have a use for the device herself? That has nothing to do with her clients desire for it. She just has to design the thing and have it work successfully enough to satisfy the brief set to her. Designers do not have to like the products they design, just do it well and with integrity.

There has been enough evidence given by others here, that cutting veneers that can be laid straight from the bandsaw is achievable. Perhaps the realisation that there are other ways to achieve a result hasn't dawned on some people.

Mike.

I’m beginning to think you have shares in this jig.

 

[Hornbeam]

The point hlvd and i are making is that before you provide a solution, you need to fully understand how experienced/professional people do the job and what the problems are associated with the way they do it. Your solution either has to improve on the current method or provide an alternative method that is faster/safer/ cheaper etc
The point made about saving waste by not planing between cuts is a red herring as the surface will have to be plane/ sanded and polished at some stage

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

For heaven's sake fellas, cut the young woman some slack.

She did ask us for a critique.

She clearly has to design and make something; she can't get an A level by saying there is no point doing it any differently than the old farts here say they do it.

I thought it might be a trick brief: design this thing as best you can for a good mark, as she is doing, but get a distinction if you also work out that it's a daft idea to start with!!

 

[Jacob]

.... Designers do not have to like the products they design, just do it well and with integrity.

Wrong wrong wrong. A "professional' has to act in the clients best interest and say what they think about the job in terms of the clients best interests. More or less what "professional" means.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

No-one worries about the sawn faces of a tenon from the backsaw, or roughness on the walls of the mortice from the chisel. I can achieve smoother cuts off the bandsaw than either of these, so why should I worry about planing the glue surface. A quick fettle with a card scraper will be fine.

How many texts on veneering shows the use of a toothing plane to roughen up the ground? Old traditional ways! Saw scratch from the bandsaw surface is not a problem.

I think some don't think beyond their own narrow experience, nor wish to improve it.

2-2.5 mm (as stated above) loss each veneer is not acceptable, nor is the loss in match between the veneers when this much material is lost between them. About 1-1.5 wastage is achievable straight from the saw.

Mike.

 

[naughtymoose]

i think you're missing the point, this is my alevel project. And its not as simple as you are making out, theres alot more to consider and do, to make sure you dont waste materials/waste as little as possible.

Good for you Elisha, for standing up and fighting your corner!

Some other things that you might forget to add to your report/design notes:

Investigation into industrial veneer cutting,

Notes on discussions with other professionals (notice that I said "OTHER", you're one of us now!)

Notes on why you've discounted/disregarded advice or comments from others (this is just as important as the final product)

Possible safety concerns (hands near sharp spinny things)

Meat slicing machines (they are just thin slices, after all)

Lots of photographs and diagrams with explanations

Notes on what led you to the idea for the design and also on coming here for assistance; I'm guessing that Mike is perhaps your teacher, or maybe a relative?

Keep at it, you don't need good luck!
Colin

 

[Windows]

As is usual for the internet, the legal advice on this thread should not be relied upon. My own post does not constitute legal advice. While previous posters have raised relevant issues, I believe they have overstated things somewhat.

You haven’t “signed away your copyright” by posting on this forum (although you have likely assigned some rights to the forum owners to reproduce your post) and you haven’t “put your work in the public domain” by posting on this forum (although you have made it harder to patent any patentable parts of your invention by revealing it publicly).

All the best with your design.

 

[Elisha Nichols]

@Elisha Nichols All I can say is make sure no one steals your idea if your intention is to market it.

You've done all the research and design, but have put it all on the internet for anyone to take and make their own.

I speak from experience, as all of my research was plagiarised by a lecturer in conservation at Zagreb university.

hey, thanks for the tip, however its only my A-level so I'm not sure I would take it any further than that.