What do you charge - bathroom locks/doors

[johnnyb]

that first lock mortice is...well extremely rough. the latch mortice is also rough. double in the door is a bit rough as well. I've seen worse tbh but how much did you pay? if you think he's gonna replace all the doors your dreaming. he may tidy stuff up I guess. Internet reviews are almost totally unreliable on these sites.

 

[johnnyb]

I often get jobs via rated people and often times people are shocked they are getting a good job. by that I mean someone who actually cares what it's like. as an example my bathroom mortice locks are done with a souber jig and are perfect. the tube latches are also drilled with a souber because I like them central and level as it helps everything else go quickly. every latch will be at the same height from the floor. I use 3 inch phosphor bronze washered as ball bearing hinges are ugly and are poo.
but it all costs I've arrived at these materials and methods because I'm particular. I may be double what your chap charges but doors fitted correctly are there for a lifetime.

 

[Mjward]

that first lock mortice is...well extremely rough. the latch mortice is also rough. double in the door is a bit rough as well. I've seen worse tbh but how much did you pay? if you think he's gonna replace all the doors your dreaming. he may tidy stuff up I guess. Internet reviews are almost totally unreliable on these sites.

5 doors done in a day £540....

 

[thetyreman]

jesus christ if that's the standard of tradesman now I could make a fortune, I could do way better than that!

 

[Mjward]

Also I'd argue this isn't a "how much did you pay" situation. Even if I'd found a joiner offering the cheap as chips rate they shouldn't be deforming the doors in this way.

For every good tradesman there are nine others willing to tarnish the industry.

Unfortunately for this one I am legally trained and as such it is fully expected they should compensate me for the entire cost of the doors that they have rendered structurally unstable by their actions

 

[Bingy man]

I normally try and look for the positives but struggling here. Due to a rotator cuff tear had to pull the trigger on a tradesman fitting the oak doors. Went through checkatrade, found best reviewed etc....

I could talk about the butcher approach to hinges/latches.

I could talk about the butcher approach to cutting the doors to size.

I could talk about the use of filler to hide error cuts in new oak doors in pretty plumb frames.

I could talk about the lack of pilot holes and bored out screw heads at random angles.

I could talk about none of the hinges being recessed into the frame and double recessed into the door.

But...


What's killing me. Is whilst applying Osmo door oil I can hear the doors "wobble". And then it hits me, this well reviewed "joiner and carpenter" has drilled the deep bathroom latches into the mid mortice and tenon joint.

I'm at an anger level well beyond livid but just want to sanity check, before i approach the tradesman suggesting the doors are replaced and fitting charges refunded that I'm not being unreasonable here?

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Well I’m no professional and had no formal training but wow @ £540 the work should be faultless and of the highest degree of excellence. The doors I fitted recently ( pics on this thread ) were imo done to a good standard- the mistake I made is letting the customer buy the hinges ( cheap Homebase rubbish. I’ve been to look at another job today where the so called carpenter has fitted the door frames/ doors badly and on top of this he fitted the architraves is several pieces up to 3 on the sides and 2 on the heads . How do they continue to get work ? How do they charge the maximum amounts possible? And how do they not end up in small claims court everyday justifying their poor quality but expensive labour costs..

 

[Bristol_Rob]

I normally try and look for the positives but struggling here. Due to a rotator cuff tear had to pull the trigger on a tradesman fitting the oak doors. Went through checkatrade, found best reviewed etc....

I could talk about the butcher approach to hinges/latches.

I could talk about the butcher approach to cutting the doors to size.

I could talk about the use of filler to hide error cuts in new oak doors in pretty plumb frames.

I could talk about the lack of pilot holes and bored out screw heads at random angles.

I could talk about none of the hinges being recessed into the frame and double recessed into the door.

But...


What's killing me. Is whilst applying Osmo door oil I can hear the doors "wobble". And then it hits me, this well reviewed "joiner and carpenter" has drilled the deep bathroom latches into the mid mortice and tenon joint.

I'm at an anger level well beyond livid but just want to sanity check, before i approach the tradesman suggesting the doors are replaced and fitting charges refunded that I'm not being unreasonable here?

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[Bristol_Rob]

Holy moly. That is shocking. Also, that is no carpenter....

This is a claim against his insurance to have all those doors fully replaced and fitted by someone competent.

You must have been in tears

 

[Mjward]

You know what I actually said to my wife last night it was a moment I could have cried.

What kills me is that this is a job I had planned to do myself, had done all the research, bought the souber for the locks, started making router jigs for the latches, had researched proper solid oak throughout doors and good quality hinges etc. It was a job I had never done before so took the time to educate myself as best possible.

Then my shoulder went and I can't do anything for a few months that involves weight so thought I'd treat myself and get a professional in. Contacted 3 trades people, all based off very good online reviews or local recommendations. The local recommendation wanted £100 per door cash in hand and I came to realise the recommendation was from a family member and they had not other recommendations in the community so swerved. The second one came and kept promising a quote but it never came. The third, which I went with, had over 50 10/10 reviews on checkatrade for joinery work and although not cheap it was something I was desperate for a quality finish...

Because the central mortice and tenon joint has been weakened, the 4 panels are no longer tight and this whenever the door moves it rattles...fking brilliant.

 

[RobinBHM]

Went through checkatrade, found best reviewed etc....

These sites should be banned.
They are lead generators, thats all they are.

I’m on DIYnot and I see posts by new members with issues like yours (carpentry, landscaping, plastering etc) all the time.


My advice to sourcing tradesmen is:

1) ask at a local trade merchant.
2) if you see an extension going up, ask the builder running the job for a recommend
3) local Facebook group

The problem with tradesmen in this country is 90% of them don’t advertise because they don’t need to: they get referrals and or get regular work from builders.

People in the trade build up a network: often by meeting other trades on a job site.

 

[johnnyb]

just to say I charge much less than your guy.

 

[paulrbarnard]

@Mjward it is experiences like yours that give me nightmares when getting someone in to do a job. I’ve reached the age now where more jobs are falling in to the “too heavy” for me category pushing me to get someone else in.

My daughter is having a new bathroom and kitchen fitted. She rents the house from me so I’m paying for the work. The kitchen is a father daughter activity, she is pretty handy, but my wife vetoed me doing the bathroom because of the weight of the bath. I was up for it anyway but do tend to underestimate the effort involved. We went out for multiple quotes with people we know and recommendations from friends. We only had one quote back. After I stemmed the flow of blood from my nose we went with the one quote we had. The trepidation in the lead up to the start of the work was extreme. However they turned up bang on time. I was there to meet them. Turns out the builder is a subcontractor rather than a one man band, I should have found that out at the quote stage. The two guys who turned up were absolutely great. They had only had a general outline of what they were supposed to do from the ‘boss’ but a couple minutes of chatting and pointing later they certainly settled my concerns. The job is due to finish this Friday and despite the electrician being a no show for the first three days, it was very difficult not to jump in and do that myself, it is going to finish on schedule. On top of that because the electrician didn’t turn up the two guys doing the bulk of the job got board on one of the days so knocked the tiles off of the kitchen wall, which was supposed to have been one of my daughter’s contribution to the kitchen job. I strongly suspect feebly waving a hammer and chisel while batting eyelashes contributed to this. The plasterer also agreed a cash price to plaster the kitchen so that was a real win. There are only two jobs I don’t like and that’s plastering and painting…
So far all going very well, of course there is the inevitable “I would have done that differently” aspects but a very positive experience overall.

There are still good trades out there. The challenge as so clearly shown in this thread is how to find them. My whole job here was basically a bit of a flyer with review information from the web. Looks like the reviews we read were genuine but we had to take it all on faith at the start.

 

[Bingy man]

Over the years I’ve done several jobs done by so called experts or professionals , I’m always surprised when they say “ but he had excellent reviews on checkatrade or my builder .com as per the previous post although it’s never been my main profession I’ve always done private work that started with friends and family and then to friends of friends etc, never had to advertise 90% of my work comes from recommendations and jobs of jobs . How they get away with the shoddy and sub standard work is beyond me .

 

[Bingy man]

@Mjward it is experiences like yours that give me nightmares when getting someone in to do a job. I’ve reached the age now where more jobs are falling in to the “too heavy” for me category pushing me to get someone else in.

My daughter is having a new bathroom and kitchen fitted. She rents the house from me so I’m paying for the work. The kitchen is a father daughter activity, she is pretty handy, but my wife vetoed me doing the bathroom because of the weight of the bath. I was up for it anyway but do tend to underestimate the effort involved. We went out for multiple quotes with people we know and recommendations from friends. We only had one quote back. After I stemmed the flow of blood from my nose we went with the one quote we had. The trepidation in the lead up to the start of the work was extreme. However they turned up bang on time. I was there to meet them. Turns out the builder is a subcontractor rather than a one man band, I should have found that out at the quote stage. The two guys who turned up were absolutely great. They had only had a general outline of what they were supposed to do from the ‘boss’ but a couple minutes of chatting and pointing later they certainly settled my concerns. The job is due to finish this Friday and despite the electrician being a no show for the first three days, it was very difficult not to jump in and do that myself, it is going to finish on schedule. On top of that because the electrician didn’t turn up the two guys doing the bulk of the job got board on one of the days so knocked the tiles off of the kitchen wall, which was supposed to have been one of my daughter’s contribution to the kitchen job. I strongly suspect feebly waving a hammer and chisel while batting eyelashes contributed to this. The plasterer also agreed a cash price to plaster the kitchen so that was a real win. There are only two jobs I don’t like and that’s plastering and painting…
So far all going very well, of course there is the inevitable “I would have done that differently” aspects but a very positive experience overall.

There are still good trades out there. The challenge as so clearly shown in this thread is how to find them. My whole job here was basically a bit of a flyer with review information from the web. Looks like the reviews we read were genuine but we had to take it all on faith at the start.

It’s a bit like working for a large firm you get grilled for anything you don’t do well or done incorrectly but never complimented for what you do well . I can only imagine the people who have bad experiences from these sites like checkatrade etc ignore them the next time around- which is a pity as the genuine tradesmen on these sites then miss out on potential customers. I think the best approach is w o m - word of mouth in a lot of cases .

 

[Doug71]

Wow, that's a bit of a rough job, you must be gutted.

As I said at the start of this thread I wouldn't be hanging 5 doors like that in a day, it would have been a 2 day job and I would have been cheaper than what you paid.

The problem with tradesmen in this country is 90% of them don’t advertise because they don’t need to: they get referrals and or get regular work from builders.

I don't advertise anywhere, don't have my van sign written, don't have a sign outside my workshop, don't even have any business cards but always seem to have plenty of work.

 

[johnnyb]

on the flipside I went to a job yesterday 16 windows. turns out it's in a listed building. I say you need listed building consent." no way that's happening." the windows are from 6 different eras at least. we just want the single glazed ones and the rotten ones replacing. surely you need to establish a style. not bothered they just need to be cheap. what material? pine and we will paint them. bear in mind these windows haven't been painted for 20 years. no hardwood painted on the outside and varnished inside. some windows the old guy would knock up himself apparently.
this is a million pound plus property. one of very few listed buildings in the area. I think the barn that his son in law lived in was also listed but had many alterations meaning they Dare not have a listed building visit on the other house.I turns out the guy that contacted me was director of umpteen property development companies now defunct.

 

[RobinBHM]

surely you need to establish a style

as you say, replacement rather than refurbishment means listed consent application

different styles indicate progression of the building and you cant assume the conservation officer would want replacements all to be matching style

when I ran a joinery business I quite oftern heard the "cant we just do it anyway and ignore any application" -I used to flatly refuse. If they wanted to order some windows, supply only, thats their choice, but I would never have been involved in removing windows in a listed property without consent -thats a criminal offence

 

[RobinBHM]

I don't advertise anywhere, don't have my van sign written, don't have a sign outside my workshop, don't even have any business cards but always seem to have plenty of work

Thats the problem for home owners looking for good tradesmen

the skilled craftsmen like yourself are only available through networking / referrals

I expect you have built up a solid clientele, so new customers are connected mostly to existing ones you trust.

 

[RobinBHM]

@Mjward it is experiences like yours that give me nightmares when getting someone in to do a job. I’ve reached the age now where more jobs are falling in to the “too heavy” for me category pushing me to get someone else in.

My daughter is having a new bathroom and kitchen fitted. She rents the house from me so I’m paying for the work. The kitchen is a father daughter activity, she is pretty handy, but my wife vetoed me doing the bathroom because of the weight of the bath. I was up for it anyway but do tend to underestimate the effort involved. We went out for multiple quotes with people we know and recommendations from friends. We only had one quote back. After I stemmed the flow of blood from my nose we went with the one quote we had. The trepidation in the lead up to the start of the work was extreme. However they turned up bang on time. I was there to meet them. Turns out the builder is a subcontractor rather than a one man band, I should have found that out at the quote stage. The two guys who turned up were absolutely great. They had only had a general outline of what they were supposed to do from the ‘boss’ but a couple minutes of chatting and pointing later they certainly settled my concerns. The job is due to finish this Friday and despite the electrician being a no show for the first three days, it was very difficult not to jump in and do that myself, it is going to finish on schedule. On top of that because the electrician didn’t turn up the two guys doing the bulk of the job got board on one of the days so knocked the tiles off of the kitchen wall, which was supposed to have been one of my daughter’s contribution to the kitchen job. I strongly suspect feebly waving a hammer and chisel while batting eyelashes contributed to this. The plasterer also agreed a cash price to plaster the kitchen so that was a real win. There are only two jobs I don’t like and that’s plastering and painting…
So far all going very well, of course there is the inevitable “I would have done that differently” aspects but a very positive experience overall.

There are still good trades out there. The challenge as so clearly shown in this thread is how to find them. My whole job here was basically a bit of a flyer with review information from the web. Looks like the reviews we read were genuine but we had to take it all on faith at the start.

One of the difficulties of construction is how to specify: even the most detailed schedule cant itemise the quality standard of every single element

A bathroom fitout requires multiple stages all of which effect subsequent ones

keeping to schedule on this sort of work is as much or more to do with project management as it is to do with skill levels -lots of tradesment are brilliant craftsmen but appalling organisers. Usually I find the guys who have vans with dashboards knee deep in receipts and empty costa cups arent very organised

 

[Mjward]

It reminded me why ex plastering I've decided to do the whole renovation myself. I've tried multiple different routes over two decades of properties and the bad far outweigh the good.

Moving to Yorkshire from London I was hoping the smaller community would ensure less chance of rogue traders but bizarrely it's not the case. The acceptable quality seems to be far lower and the number of available tradesmen next to nothing. The local facebook groups are beyond useless as I've discovered that whenever anyone posts "any plumber recommendations?" etc.... it's the exact same people making the same recommendations. A little dig further and its clearly girlfriends, aunties, brothers etc recommending mates. Being relatively new to the area we have a small social circle and when I ask them for trades the unanimous response is "ha" followed by "be lucky, all useless round here".

I then spent a good while not just checking online reviews but what work they were reviewed for etc. This is where I made an error. There is a big difference between what people deem good/acceptable quality. In hindsight this guy clearly was used to working with the Wickes special 40 quid cardboard doors and knocking them up in new build frames. Solid oak throughout in Edwardian frames obviously was a technical level too far.

Not sure they will be a next time as more adamant than ever just to do it all myself (once recovered from injury) but certainly will try the local merchants next time on the hope a diamond in the rough might be found.

Anyway, spoke to the "joiner" today, listed off all the issues and emphasized the biggest issue i.e. butchering out a whole for a bathroom latch right through the tenon joint and was told that was the standard height for door handles. My response of "I appreciate there may be a generic/ideal height but surely the door construction is factored in?" fell on deaf ears and alarm bells were ringing when my basic terminology of rails and stiles was deemed a foreign language.