What diamond stone; and what do the codes stand for?

[Deadeye]

I know, I know.
Hundreds of sharpening threads... but I'm boggled.
I was recommended to get a 300/1000 two-sided Trend diamond stone.
But there's "DC-W8" and "DWS-W8-FC" and "DWS-CP8-FC" and so on. What's the code?

Furthermore, what's your ranking between Trend, DMT, Atoma, Eze lap, Ultex, What???

Yes, I've seen the sandpaper option. I seem to rip a lot of sandpaper!

 

[mrpercysnodgrass]

I don't know about the other makes but I have two DMT stones one coarse and one fine, they are now about twenty five years old and still work perfectly. Is that a good enough recommendation!

 

[ED65]

I think it's really much more useful to go coarser than what is usually offered on the flip side of a combination hone. While 300/1000 seems a useful enough range the 'coarse' side, isn't. 300 is much more a medium grit and I personally find almost no use for medium grits any more, at least not in diamonds.

And because this is diamonds, for normal honing duties the 1000 is likely aggressive enough unless you're working with particularly hard modern steels. Following up with nothing, stropping or a much finer finishing stone as per your preference and you can be set as far as your day-to-day honing is concerned.

What's the coarser side for then? I think you want it for initial prep and the very occasional edge repair after some minor damage (anything more major you'd be heading to the grinder unless you're a masochist, or don't own a grinder). Even though both of these aren't something you do even weekly it's better to go much coarser, 150 at least. I have a 150 (see link below for an idea of cost) and it works well for what I mostly use it for – sorting out secondhand tools with pitting, rounded edges etc. – but TBH I wish I'd gone even coarser.

And some more food for thought, really-cheap-diamond-stones-t103588.html

 

[Deadeye]

The coarser side is to flatten a fine waterstone

 

[custard]

what's your ranking between Trend, DMT, Atoma, Eze lap, Ultex, What???

I've used diamond stones from Atoma, Trend, DMT, and (at least briefly) Ultex.

The clear winner is Atoma, they're just beautiful stones to use, fast, clean, accurate, loads of feedback, superbly made.

Trend and DMT are pretty much at a level, fully up to professional requirements, just not quite in the Atoma league.

Ultex are miracles of affordability! For the occasional user they're perfectly good enough. But there are compromises required to achieve those astonishing price points. In the case of Ultex it's lower grade diamonds that won't deliver years of service, so what you may say, at those prices you can chuck them out and replace, and that's a conclusion I wouldn't disagree with. But in addition the plate flatness is variable, the bonding isn't terrific (so they tend to become bald, especially towards the edges) and the grading is a bit sloppy so you may get a mixture of grit sizes on each stone, with results in the odd deeper scratch that you can't get rid of. But I'll say again, for the occasional user they're still astonishing value for money and a cheap way into the diamond sharpening system.

One other point that you may find relevant. There's only one diamond stone (at least that I can find) that goes to exceptional levels of fineness, and that's the DMT (?) extra, extra fine. I think from memory it's rated at 6,000 grit. Do you need this? Probably not, but it's there if you think you do!

 

[ColeyS1]

I bought the extra extra fine.

At the moment its unusable. It seems much much coarser than my well used extra fine one. Apparently it takes a while to get to the desired grit. Ideally I need to give it to a site chippy for a few months cause I can't think of a use I could use it for, other than tidying up mortices.

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[custard]

I bought the extra extra fine.At the moment its unusable. It seems much much coarser than my well used extra fine one. Apparently it takes a while to get to the desired grit.

I can't remember how long it took to bed in my "Extra Extra Fine", but I don't think it took very long at all.

Even though it's graded as 6,000 grit it won't raise a mirror polish where as every 6,000 grit water stone I've ever used will deliver a mirror polish. But there's no doubt that the XXFine is miles finer than any other diamond stone, you can feel that straight away in use.

It's an expensive stone, and I'm not going to pretend it's a sensible way to spend a budget, it's not. I only use it in certain very specific circumstances, and if I didn't have one I'd soon find an alternative solution.

One occasion when I'll use the Extra Extra Fine is if I've raised a particularly large burr, or if the burr is on exceptionally hard steel. In these circumstances the burr risks tearing the scary sharp paper when flattening off the back to remove the burr. So a quick swipe on the XXFine knocks off the burr and then, if the spirit so moves me, I'll go on to get a mirror polish on the scary sharp paper.

 

[El Barto]

I got the Ultex stones when I first started out about two years ago and they're still working fine. They're not perfect but are perfectly adequate.

I wasn't aware of any codes until this topic came up.

 

[E-wan]

In these circumstances the burr risks tearing the scary sharp paper when flattening off the back to remove the burr. So a quick swipe on the XXFine knocks off the burr and then, if the spirit so moves me, I'll go on to get a mirror polish on the scary sharp paper.

I'm curious about the scary sharp paper. At what point in the sharpening process does it tend to be used? Is it an alternative to a strop?

With my limited knowledge and experience I would have thought that the time spent sticking down paper and the risk of tearing it would put off somebody using it as part of a professional sharpening routine.

Thanks

Ewan


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[custard]

I'm curious about the scary sharp paper. At what point in the sharpening process does it tend to be used? Is it an alternative to a strop?

With my limited knowledge and experience I would have thought that the time spent sticking down paper and the risk of tearing it would put off somebody using it as part of a professional sharpening routine.

Yes, broadly speaking the scary sharp paper does exactly the same job as a strop. It's down to individual choices, but personally I prefer scary sharp paper to a strop, however I know some excellent craftsmen who think otherwise. So whatever you choose you'll be in great company!

Here's my sharpening set up,

I use a grinder or a linisher frequently. If it takes longer than about ten or twelve strokes to raise a burr then the tool gets a little tickle with the linisher, so that the ground bevel is always well within 1mm of the cutting edge. Because I don't grind right to the cutting edge there's never any risk of bluing the steel. As a rough rule of thumb I'll normally grind after every seven or eight sharpenings, it takes seconds but it saves minutes. In the case of really thick irons and chisels it saves a great deal of minutes!

Sharpening takes place on diamond stones using water as a lubricant throughout, mixing different lubricants slows you down and risks contamination. I normally start with a 600 grit stone. As soon as a burr has been raised right around the cutting edge, then I lift the tool a fraction and hone on a 1200 grit stone.

Then the tool goes onto the pink scary sharp paper at the same angle as on the 1200 stone and is polished. If it's a critical job this might be repeated on the pale green paper which is a still finer grit. The tool is then flipped over and the burr is removed on pink or green scary sharp paper. To be honest most tools work adequately well straight off the 1200 grit stone, but you can't polish with 1200 grit, and a big advantage of polishing is that it allows you to check visually that the entire cutting edge, from one corner to the other, has all been properly sharpened. It's surprising how easy it is to miss a bit. If you want to use a honing guide that's okay, unless you're sharpening regularly you'll probably be faster and more accurate with a simple, cheap honing guide like the Eclipse. I'm seeing more and more professionals using honing guides, there's certainly no shame in using one if that's what you prefer.

The entire job takes about a minute.

I'm sharpening at least five days a week. I'd expect to change the scary sharp paper maybe every second month. I take a lot of care to avoid getting dust trapped underneath so it's probably a twenty minute job. I once worked in a workshop where four to six craftsmen shared each sharpening station, because no one wanted to change the scary sharp paper it might remain in place for up to three months. That was a bit daft as by then it was well past it's sell by date, but it shows how long it can last if you're stubborn!

The keys to successful sharpening in my view are 1) check you've raised a burr right around the edge, 2) check you've produced a mirror polish right around the edge, 3) grind frequently so that a power tool's doing all the hard work in the sharpening process, 4) have a permanent sharpening station in your workshop, or if that's impossible have your sharpening kit ready laid out on a tray and all ready to go.

 

[E-wan]

Thanks

Think i prefer a strop but can see the advantage of the scary sharp paper for removing a burr.

Do you tend to just remove the burr at the end of sharpening or chase the burr durring the sharpening process

Still a little confused about the linisher and how one would grind with this without going all the way to the edge of the tool

If I was to try the scary sharp paper can I just stick it to a flat surface such as a spare bathroom tile?

Thanks again for taking the time and your comprehensive reply

Ewan

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[custard]

Do you tend to just remove the burr at the end of sharpening or chase the burr durring the sharpening process

At the end.

Still a little confused about the linisher and how one would grind with this without going all the way to the edge of the tool

As a general rule I grind at 25 degrees, sharpen at about 27 degrees, and hone at about 30 degrees. I wouldn't get too obsessed with angles, a degree or two either way doesn't make much practical difference.

If I was to try the scary sharp paper can I just stick it to a flat surface such as a spare bathroom tile?

If the tile's flat then yes, a lot of people use float glass, I prefer a marble slab. There's no right and wrong, it's whatever you've got to hand that gets the job done. Incidentally, for site work I prefer a strop to scary sharp, at the bench it's the other way around. It's just personal preference, there's no point in being prescriptive because they all work fine.

 

[El Barto]

Out of interest what exactly are the advantages of grinding frequently? It's something I find isn't covered or explained in the "how to sharpen " videos that a lot of people watch when they're starting out. The only time I ever grind is if I've nicked or damaged an edge. Otherwise my sharpening workflow is:

diamond plates up to 1200
remove burr on 1200
strop

It does often take a minute to raise a burr on the 320 or 600 plate so if I can save time I'm open to new ideas!

 

[custard]

Power grinding removes metal quickly and with little effort. If you're using thick plane irons made from A2 steel then life's just too short for the massive honing sessions you'd need without a grinder, before long you'd be talking 100+ manual strokes on even a coarse diamond stone to raise a burr. Preserving or amending a camber means all those strokes would have to be repeated at multiple points around the camber's radius.

If you're using a thin iron, or a laminated iron, then it's less of a problem. Entirely do-able by hand. But even there I'd prefer to complete the sharpening and get back to actually making stuff as soon as possible. So I use a power grinder and keep any secondary bevel to well within one mill of the cutting edge, consequently I can almost always raise a burr in less than ten strokes.

Really it boils down to this simple question, would you rather remove metal by hand rubbing on a stone, or with a two second tickle on on a power grinder?

 

[El Barto]

Interesting. Do you use a jig on the grinder to keep things consistent? This is probably the number one reason I don't do it; because I don't have a jig and therefore can't really be bothered grinding, creating an error then spending x amount of time cleaning it up!!

 

[custard]

Not so much a jig as such, just a platform set at 25 degrees for the tool to rest on.

You're right that the tool holding platform can be an issue. I've seen and used plenty that are pretty bad, either tilted at an angle so you can't get the tool square to the belt/wheel, or that won't hold the angle setting and flop down during use.

 

[El Barto]

Ah yes I have seen them, Veritas and such make them don't they. After freehand grinding my turning chisels I started using a jig and I have to say it's very satisfying getting repeatable results every time.

Ok, thread hijack over. Sorry OP!