What cost for European Ash

[starlingwood]

It does rather sound like someone is having a laugh, that said you also gave them a lot of money for nothing, which is rarely a sound plan.

The reality is that people can charge what they want and other people can choose to pay it, I’m not sure you’d have any legal leverage on this one, though you could force them to justify the cost for the work so far, that might be amusing, for that price they must select boards like Abraham Asscher split diamonds.

Aidan

Distance selling regulations, the enquiry was made over the phone and the quotation and acceptance made via email. It's not a bespoke product (or is it). Therefore I have the law on my side, well within my right for a refund just unsure what a reasonable restocking fee would be. I asked the owner this morning what work they have done to justify £250 and as said its "several hours of turning boards over and selecting" and other admin tasks such as refunding me, writing out the invoice.

 

[akirk]

I suspect that you could recover other monies if you wished to pursue them - they would have to show that any monies they kept were justified... and exceptional to normal business - i.e. anyone walking in off the street would take up their time moving wood around - it is a cost of their doing business, so shouldn't be charged in this instance...

however... it is probably not worth it - even if they keep £250 it is probably still less hassle and cost to walk away having learned a lesson from it... If you paid by credit card you could get them involved, otherwise, I would say that it is better value to end the hassle...

 

[Inspector]

I guess I will be an outlier with my opinion but I side with the wood supplier.

You went in and asked for specific items which they quoted and you accepted.

They are part way through completing the order and now you want to cancel.

They told you they have picked the wood which you don't seem to see a value in but they may have had to forklift their way through a bunch of wood piles to get to the material, picked through it to get the needed wood without incurring a lot of waste, setting it aside while they then re-stacked the wood and forklifted it all back again. Then taking your wood to the cutting area. Now they have to take it back and put it back into the piles again.

There is time involved in the paperwork including the cost of issuing a refund which you also don't appreciate.

Generally a cancelation/restocking fee here is 10% to 15% but they have put effort into it thus far so the 18% you are getting dinged for is not out of line especially as you didn't find out what the cancelation fee was before buying.

Here, in a city approaching 300,000, there is only one retail wood dealer, pricing accordingly and no custom cutting, that will sell to hobby buyers. The others will only sell to businesses, even if I want a couple hundred board feet off the top of the stack. They don't want the hassle of dealing with private sales.

When you are looking for a machine I bet dollars to doughnuts you shop around and research a lot before you buy. You made a mistake by not doing the same in this instance. It is an unfortunate lesson but I think it is the price of education and you should allow the man his fee without griping. If you give them too much grief and other customers do the same you will end up with only one dealer willing to put up with it and you will all pay accordingly. I can get cheaper wood but I have to drive 7 or 8 hours minimum one way to major cities in other provinces to get it.

Pete

 

[marcros]

I guess I will be an outlier with my opinion but I side with the wood supplier.

You went in and asked for specific items which they quoted and you accepted.

They are part way through completing the order and now you want to cancel.

They told you they have picked the wood which you don't seem to see a value in but they may have had to forklift their way through a bunch of wood piles to get to the material, picked through it to get the needed wood without incurring a lot of waste, setting it aside while they then re-stacked the wood and forklifted it all back again. Then taking your wood to the cutting area. Now they have to take it back and put it back into the piles again.

There is time involved in the paperwork including the cost of issuing a refund which you also don't appreciate.

Generally a cancelation/restocking fee here is 10% to 15% but they have put effort into it thus far so the 18% you are getting dinged for is not out of line especially as you didn't find out what the cancelation fee was before buying.

Here, in a city approaching 300,000, there is only one retail wood dealer, pricing accordingly and no custom cutting, that will sell to hobby buyers. The others will only sell to businesses, even if I want a couple hundred board feet off the top of the stack. They don't want the hassle of dealing with private sales.

When you are looking for a machine I bet dollars to doughnuts you shop around and research a lot before you buy. You made a mistake by not doing the same in this instance. It is an unfortunate lesson but I think it is the price of education and you should allow the man his fee without griping. If you give them too much grief and other customers do the same you will end up with only one dealer willing to put up with it and you will all pay accordingly. I can get cheaper wood but I have to drive 7 or 8 hours minimum one way to major cities in other provinces to get it.

Pete

not so much a "like", but more of an acknowledgement that I tend to agree with this.

 

[starlingwood]

I guess I will be an outlier with my opinion but I side with the wood supplier.

You went in and asked for specific items which they quoted and you accepted.

They are part way through completing the order and now you want to cancel.

They told you they have picked the wood which you don't seem to see a value in but they may have had to forklift their way through a bunch of wood piles to get to the material, picked through it to get the needed wood without incurring a lot of waste, setting it aside while they then re-stacked the wood and forklifted it all back again. Then taking your wood to the cutting area. Now they have to take it back and put it back into the piles again.

There is time involved in the paperwork including the cost of issuing a refund which you also don't appreciate.

Generally a cancelation/restocking fee here is 10% to 15% but they have put effort into it thus far so the 18% you are getting dinged for is not out of line especially as you didn't find out what the cancelation fee was before buying.

Here, in a city approaching 300,000, there is only one retail wood dealer, pricing accordingly and no custom cutting, that will sell to hobby buyers. The others will only sell to businesses, even if I want a couple hundred board feet off the top of the stack. They don't want the hassle of dealing with private sales.

When you are looking for a machine I bet dollars to doughnuts you shop around and research a lot before you buy. You made a mistake by not doing the same in this instance. It is an unfortunate lesson but I think it is the price of education and you should allow the man his fee without griping. If you give them too much grief and other customers do the same you will end up with only one dealer willing to put up with it and you will all pay accordingly. I can get cheaper wood but I have to drive 7 or 8 hours minimum one way to major cities in other provinces to get it.

Pete

So you think that they will have spent several hours selecting my wood then? I'm a complete novice here hence me asking the question. Its about 4cu ft of wood, I'm told its about 12 boards. If £250 is a fair price then I have no problem, hence me asking. I am totally at fault here but I have a right to cancel.

You make a great point about the cancellation fee, they did not advise me of any terms of conditions of sale at all prior to me agreeing and paying, again as the buyer am I at fault here for that?

Ive found buying timber a little different to buying a machine, it's much easier to shop around for a machine. My fault was that i just assumed it was a great friendly firm that would charge a fair price, not 3 or 4 times.

 

[MARK.B.]

I worked in a timber yard for almost two years and if it had taken me several hours to pick such a small order the Boss would want to know why and he would not have been a happy bunny. So i think they are Extracting the Urine by charging you so much.
You could give Citizens Advice a ring and see what they say,its worth the price of a phone call

 

[marcros]

So you think that they will have spent several hours selecting my wood then? I'm a complete novice here hence me asking the question. Its about 4cu ft of wood, I'm told its about 12 boards. If £250 is a fair price then I have no problem, hence me asking. I am totally at fault here but I have a right to cancel.

You make a great point about the cancellation fee, they did not advise me of any terms of conditions of sale at all prior to me agreeing and paying, again as the buyer am I at fault here for that?

Ive found buying timber a little different to buying a machine, it's much easier to shop around for a machine. My fault was that i just assumed it was a great friendly firm that would charge a fair price, not 3 or 4 times.

I doubt that they have thought that much about the £250, just arrived at the answer. There wont be a build up of x hours at a rate, etc it is just a lump sum made up on the spot, briefly considering the circumstances. That is where it is difficult to know whether it is reasonable. Make a bit of fuss, they will probably half it.

 

[Inspector]

As a simulation get in your car and time how long it takes to drive up to a parking spot, back out and go to the one next to it and back again. Do that 3 times. That will simulate how long the forklift had to dig out the pile. Now imagine with one or two people taking and moving/flipping a couple dozen boards to get the 12 boards for you and putting the others back into the stack. Now hop in your car and "forklift" the 3 piles back again, pick up the "12 board pile" and drive it 30 to 50 metres to unload if for cutting. Now with the cancellation they have to take it back and reverse the process. How long did you spend?

It is up to you to know the conditions of the sale and their return policy before committing to the purchase. If you didn't ask then I think it was your fault.

I don't see it any different. You look for the machine/wood find out if it is fit for your needs/the size, grade and condition and you decide if the price is fair for both. Had you looked for 3 quotes you would have seen they were high and ruled them out or found out why the difference and made a decision accordingly. Unlike a tool salesman, wood merchants don't pressure sell you on buying any products they have. At least I have never experience one that did. I certainly have with tool sellers.

Pete

 

[paulrbarnard]

I can get cheaper wood but I have to drive 7 or 8 hours minimum one way to major cities in other provinces to get it.

Pete

Could be worse. If you lived in Winnipeg you would need to drive 7 or 8 hours just to see a tree

 

[Inspector]

Could be worse. If you lived in Winnipeg you would need to drive 7 or 8 hours just to see a tree

We are not exactly covered in forests either Paul, and Winnipeg is one of the places I would have to drive to. Calgary and Edmonton the other two. All three have to have most all their wood shipped in from eastern Canada or up from the US just like here.

Pete

 

[JohnPW]

Is £1,400 their normal price? Or is it a "special" price they reserve for newbies? How can they stay in business charging several times more than other timber yards' prices?

I think if you cancel on the basis of the distance selling rules and it's not a made to order item (the buyer has the absolute right to cancel), then you should get a full refund. Just like you would with a faulty product. Stocking fees and admins fees are for when you return something because you've changed your mind and the retailer has no legal obligation to accept the return.

 

[paulrbarnard]

We are not exactly covered in forests either Paul, and Winnipeg is one of the places I would have to drive to. Calgary and Edmonton the other two. All three have to have most all their wood shipped in from eastern Canada or up from the US just like here.

Pete

I made it to Winnipeg and Calgary many times when I lived in Canada as I worked for Nortel and had teams in both cities. I only ever flew over Saskatoon.

 

[marcros]

Is £1,400 their normal price? Or is it a "special" price they reserve for newbies? How can they stay in business charging several times more than other timber yards' prices?

that is a different but very valid question. There is clearly something amiss here. something that we dont know, or that the OP doesn't know or has misunderstood. If it is sawn ash, and there was 4 cubic feet or thereabouts, I would say that it is impossible to find anywhere else in the country selling it for 300 a cube.

I think if you cancel on the basis of the distance selling rules and it's not a made to order item (the buyer has the absolute right to cancel), then you should get a full refund. Just like you would with a faulty product. Stocking fees and admins fees are for when you return something because you've changed your mind and the retailer has no legal obligation to accept the return.

This is an interesting discussion. If the timber is ordered to bespoke sizes, does that make it a bespoke order, even though the timber hasn't been cut yet and starts off as [potentially] a non standard order? They have, after all, started to process the order. Is there a difference between ordering 4 cubic feet of timber, made up from random width boards, compared with say 20 lengths of 4x2 CLS.

 

[akirk]

As a simulation get in your car and time how long it takes to drive up to a parking spot, back out and go to the one next to it and back again. Do that 3 times. That will simulate how long the forklift had to dig out the pile. Now imagine with one or two people taking and moving/flipping a couple dozen boards to get the 12 boards for you and putting the others back into the stack. Now hop in your car and "forklift" the 3 piles back again, pick up the "12 board pile" and drive it 30 to 50 metres to unload if for cutting. Now with the cancellation they have to take it back and reverse the process. How long did you spend?

Yes - it will take them quite a bit of time... but that doesn't change the law
If I walk in off the street and ask the same thing and they spend that same amount of time picking out wood, and then before paying I change my mind - there is no obligation for me to pay them for their time - okay, they will probably never serve me again, but that doesn't stop my core right as a consumer to choose to say no thank you (or indeed as a remote consumer to return items)... the time they have wasted is simply a cost of doing business...

If I am approached to ask whether my company would do some work for another company, I might spend time putting together a proposition / plan, and they might say no thank you, it has cost me in time, but that is simply a cost of doing business...

Even if they had a right to charge for that time (and they don't), how many hours have they included in a cost of £250 (10 hours / 5 hours?) even with a high hourly rate it wouldn't take them anything like that time... they are making up that £250 just as much as they made up the original price!

 

[starlingwood]

that is a different but very valid question. There is clearly something amiss here. something that we dont know, or that the OP doesn't know or has misunderstood. If it is sawn ash, and there was 4 cubic feet or thereabouts, I would say that it is impossible to find anywhere else in the country selling it for 300 a cube.



This is an interesting discussion. If the timber is ordered to bespoke sizes, does that make it a bespoke order, even though the timber hasn't been cut yet and starts off as [potentially] a non standard order? They have, after all, started to process the order. Is there a difference between ordering 4 cubic feet of timber, made up from random width boards, compared with say 20 lengths of 4x2 CLS.

I called them up and said that I was after either AA or EA and that being a newbie I did not know exactly how to specify the quantity of timber I needed. The chap on the phone was great and said just send over your cutting list and explained that I would be quoted for waney edge boards that would be selected for the size of pieces I wanted. I would then mill them to my sizes. I did not want the boards cut and I remember asking that I need the boards to wider and thicker than my cut list pieces to allow for any twists/cup/bow etc that I can take out myself. The opening post was the exact cutting list I gave them. There really is not more to it. I will cut and paste a copy of the quote if I can figure how.

 

[starlingwood]

Here is a screenshot of the invoice.

 

[flh801978]

It’s a shame they didn’t price up each bit of give a price per cube
Would the 120mm thick boards carry a premium price?

 

[hugov]

I was just thinking I wonder if they interpreted

Item 1 - 6No legs which are 120x120 and 713 high (3 pieces to be laminated).

as 18 pieces (6 times 3) but your invoice clears that up. If that had been the case, and assuming 30% overage on their side then they would have been supplying something like 12 cu.ft. making it a less-unreasonable £116/cu.ft. But they aren't, making it £220/cu.ft at the same overage (or £286 per finished cubic foot), which is very steep.

FWIW I gave a cut list like yours (finished dimensions) to actimber.co.uk near Ely last summer, and they charged me around £74/cu.ft inc. VAT for American Ash (measuring to the finished part dimensions, so ignoring both my wastage in milling the timber and cutting out any knots (there weren't many), and their overage in terms of available board sizes containing the sizes of my pieces). They picked out very nice straight boards for me and brought them all outside for me so I could load up the car. It wasn't a particularly large order – total including some other timber around £420.

I ended up with quite a bit spare too (maybe 20%?), so I think they allowed for me to discard more for knots/etc than I did (I left some minor ones in and filled them). This was on 1" sawn stock, which is normally a bit cheaper than the 2" you're needing for most of it. I milled the one inch sawn boards down to 21.5mm, so that's a 16% wastage right there. Together at a guesstimated 30% overage, that works out at £50 per cubic foot sawn lumber supplied.

(At the time I thought I was getting a bit of a naive hobbyist premium, but now I think I got a good deal!)

Edit to add: AC Timber didn't give me a price breakdown per board and just gave me a total, which was a strangely round number (£320 + VAT for the ash).

 

[Inspector]

The law might be on your side but you were given a quote and accepted it without any further questioning or looking elsewhere for comparison. My personal ethics wouldn't let me back out of a commitment I made.

You gents are free to do as you like. My position has been made so I will not comment further.

All the best
Pete

 

[Farm Labourer]

I've been very happy with my dealings with AC Timber in Ely.