what are CLIFTON doing.....

[bridger]

Pardon my cynicism. I really do want to see clifton prosper and improve. My observation is that when a small quality focused company is taken over by a larger company the culture of the small company is lost. In the worst case it is called vulture capitalism, where the small company is disected and every possible asset is extracted. I don't think Flynn is up to such antics at all, but I do fear that in the end the accountants and "value engineers" will steer clifton off track. I hope I'm wrong. Case in point: the color change. The new owners as their first move change the signature brand identifier, with it's strong connection to it's Britishness from green to grey. The rationale given- to reduce the gloss of the finish, thus reduce the prominence of practically nonexistant lumpiness in the castings. Since the glossiness of the paint could easily enough have been addressed without changing the color, or for that matter simply address the casting smoothness directly, such a move clearly exceeds the stated objective, and IMO damages the brand identity. It may be that Flynn has a plan and a direction for clifton that strengthens clifton both as a market identity and as a working group of talented, dedicated living people. There seems to be room in the market for something like clifton, competitive as the premium tool business is. Anyhow, I wish clifton well, and hope the new management doesn't muck it up too badly.

 

[iNewbie]

A plane is simply a tool to do a particular job, if it does the job it was made for then what does it matter what colour the manufacturer paints it.

Is that a question for the new owner(s)?

Newbie, it isn't the new owners that raised the colour issue so why would you think I was addressing them ?
All good equipment made in Britain ( as opposed to the mass of foreign rubbish ) should be supported irrespective of whatever colour it is.

Brian

Its iNewbie, Brain -- see what I did there.

If the colour doesn't matter they can leave well alone, no?

Its a great colour and it stands out from anyone elses product. Its immediately identifiable. It is, Clifton. if it ain't broke -- just lumpy...-- don't fix it!

 

[PAC1]

Pardon my cynicism. I really do want to see clifton prosper and improve. My observation is that when a small quality focused company is taken over by a larger company the culture of the small company is lost. In the worst case it is called vulture capitalism, where the small company is disected and every possible asset is extracted. I don't think Flynn is up to such antics at all, but I do fear that in the end the accountants and "value engineers" will steer clifton off track. I hope I'm wrong. Case in point: the color change. The new owners as their first move change the signature brand identifier, with it's strong connection to it's Britishness from green to grey. The rationale given- to reduce the gloss of the finish, thus reduce the prominence of practically nonexistant lumpiness in the castings. Since the glossiness of the paint could easily enough have been addressed without changing the color, or for that matter simply address the casting smoothness directly, such a move clearly exceeds the stated objective, and IMO damages the brand identity. It may be that Flynn has a plan and a direction for clifton that strengthens clifton both as a market identity and as a working group of talented, dedicated living people. There seems to be room in the market for something like clifton, competitive as the premium tool business is. Anyhow, I wish clifton well, and hope the new management doesn't muck it up too badly.

Interesting. if you read their website you will quickly realise that you have nothing to fear.

 

[paulm]

Seems to me that the paint thing has people falling almost exclusively into two camps, those that don't care as long as the tools do the job in hand, and those that do care and with some passion (sensible or logical or not !).

There seems a marked lack of those that dislike the green paint to the extent that it puts them off buying products they would otherwise purchase.

If that is the case then what is achieved by a colour change except to alienate the not insignificant proportion of the market that think the green coloration is integral to the character of the brand ?

A change is not going to attract those who only care about functionality, they will already buy or not buy based on quality and price point rather than aesthetics and brand characteristics, so what does a change actually accomplish in a positive sense ?

If I could see sense in the change then I would get over my dissapointment at the dilution/tinkering with a fundamental brand characteristic, but I have not heard anything sensible in support of the change and it does sadly seem to me like misguided and unnecessary tinkering that adds nothing.

Cheers, Paul

 

[bridger]

here's an example from the power tools market: when the brand now called dewalt was being created, it was a project of a bunch of financial types. they took the name of a company that had been through the vulture capital wringer, dewalt. dewalt had been a single line (mostly) manufacturer of radial arm saws, with a strong reputation for quality. the name brand was simply another asset to be liquidated, and as it had a good reputation, it had cash value. so under this brand, they began a program of rebadging the products of other small companies that they were able to consume. at first they started with quality products, the industrial line of black and decker, elu, others. dewalt made nothing new of their own. as the market penetration of the new dewalt brand increased, both through the reputations for these quality products and through the elimination of the competition from the brands that had actually developed those tools, they began the process of cutting costs and production has largely been sent to china. the same corporate overlords have used their dominant market position to do the same with almost all of the leading tool manufacturers- Bosch, Milwaukee, Sioux, Porter cable, all have just become line items on some multinational's balance sheets, with the actual products and the brand identities disassociated and production jobbed out to the lowest bidder.

 

[Bod]

Forgive me, but does T Flinn LTD. have a company colour? (JCB = yellow, Fire engines = red, Eddie Stobart = green/white etc)
This could be an opportunity, to create a visual link across all their products, paint colour, printing inks, packaging, perhaps as all ready suggested work clothing range.

Food for thought?

Bod

 

[Jacob]

I can't wait for the cardigan. What about slippers too? And a cocoa mug? I'm so excited!

 

[iNewbie]

Slippers with a walnut knob on the toe-caps is my thinking. Graphite in colour, mind...

 

[Cheshirechappie]

here's an example from the power tools market: when the brand now called dewalt was being created, it was a project of a bunch of financial types. they took the name of a company that had been through the vulture capital wringer, dewalt. dewalt had been a single line (mostly) manufacturer of radial arm saws, with a strong reputation for quality. the name brand was simply another asset to be liquidated, and as it had a good reputation, it had cash value. so under this brand, they began a program of rebadging the products of other small companies that they were able to consume. at first they started with quality products, the industrial line of black and decker, elu, others. dewalt made nothing new of their own. as the market penetration of the new dewalt brand increased, both through the reputations for these quality products and through the elimination of the competition from the brands that had actually developed those tools, they began the process of cutting costs and production has largely been sent to china. the same corporate overlords have used their dominant market position to do the same with almost all of the leading tool manufacturers- Bosch, Milwaukee, Sioux, Porter cable, all have just become line items on some multinational's balance sheets, with the actual products and the brand identities disassociated and production jobbed out to the lowest bidder.

All you say may well be true, but it's rather like discussing the fortunes of Morgan Cars by comparing them to Ford and General Motors. I rather doubt that the combined staff of Thomas Flinn and Clifton number more than about ten; I doubt their combined turnover would be of the slightest interest to anybody in the venture capital market. Flinn are a small family-owned and run firm, taking on a small subsidiary of a small company. As for offshoring to China, Flinn haven't, and have shown considerable commitment to making things in Sheffield. I think your fears are misplaced.

 

[NickWelford]

Slippers with a walnut knob on the toe-caps is my thinking. Graphite in colour, mind...

I'd rather have green ones.......

 

[iNewbie]

No green I'm afraid. The Hulk has it Trade Marked. Gets a bit shirty about it...

 

[Peter Sefton]

here's an example from the power tools market: when the brand now called dewalt was being created, it was a project of a bunch of financial types. they took the name of a company that had been through the vulture capital wringer, dewalt. dewalt had been a single line (mostly) manufacturer of radial arm saws, with a strong reputation for quality. the name brand was simply another asset to be liquidated, and as it had a good reputation, it had cash value. so under this brand, they began a program of rebadging the products of other small companies that they were able to consume. at first they started with quality products, the industrial line of black and decker, elu, others. dewalt made nothing new of their own. as the market penetration of the new dewalt brand increased, both through the reputations for these quality products and through the elimination of the competition from the brands that had actually developed those tools, they began the process of cutting costs and production has largely been sent to china. the same corporate overlords have used their dominant market position to do the same with almost all of the leading tool manufacturers- Bosch, Milwaukee, Sioux, Porter cable, all have just become line items on some multinational's balance sheets, with the actual products and the brand identities disassociated and production jobbed out to the lowest bidder.

All you say may well be true, but it's rather like discussing the fortunes of Morgan Cars by comparing them to Ford and General Motors. I rather doubt that the combined staff of Thomas Flinn and Clifton number more than about ten; I doubt their combined turnover would be of the slightest interest to anybody in the venture capital market. Flinn are a small family-owned and run firm, taking on a small subsidiary of a small company. As for offshoring to China, Flinn haven't, and have shown considerable commitment to making things in Sheffield. I think your fears are misplaced.

Cheshirechappie - you have summed up Thomas Flinn very well; their commitment to Sheffield and British engineering is now in its third generation of hand making saws. This is a small family owned and run business who are passionate about what they do and the traditions of the tool makers of Sheffield. The family members are on the shop floor making saws.
I was amazed when I visited their workshops - it is about the same size as mine; a small craft workshop. Only after my visit did I fully understand and appreciate how similar our crafts are - we are just using different materials.

Your analogy with my local Morgan cars is interesting and reminds me of the infamous TV programme with the trouble shooter, Sir Harvey Jones, telling them how they were getting it all wrong. Morgan have stayed true to their beliefs and principles and are committed to hand producing cars and whist the rest of the market has out sourced, grown, laid off staff and become bland. Morgan are doing very well indeed and have more than survived with a very loyal and committed workforce and an order book where the waiting list for a new Morgan is quite a few years. There are only a few miles away in Malvern and the current MD is an old school mate of mine who joined them straight from school at 16 sweeping the floors and worked his way up through the business.

I feel Flinn are very similar they have a very committed team of staff and suppliers who understand and support their efforts to keep and improve the quality of their range of products. It has been suggested that they roll out and get more retailers. This may prove counter productive if these retailers do not and can not convey the the quality and benefits of the Clifton range. Keeping it tight with just a hand full of suppliers is how LN have kept their air of exclusivity which has kept demand at a constant level and proved a very sound marketing strategy.

We don't need to be shown how to make great tools we already do that, it's getting this across to the general public after LN and LV took the market by the horns when the English makers were caught napping 30 years ago. They are now awake and ready for business supplying the very best tools available!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You could argue of course that Morgan have survived because of collectors. No one in their right mind would buy one for everyday use when they could get something as good or better for a fraction of the price.

 

[bugbear]

You could argue of course that Morgan have survived because of collectors. No one in their right mind would buy one for everyday use when they could get something as good or better for a fraction of the price.

I would argue that Morgan have survived because they have customers who want to buy their products at the prices asked.

BugBear

 

[Eric The Viking]

And there was me, thinking Morgans looked their absolute best in British Racing [ducks and runs...]

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

All in all, I wish Thomas Flinn & Company all the best and hope Clifton works out well for them. As mentioned much earlier in this threaed, my Clifton #3 is one of my favorite planes and I'll forgive Flinn for the color change! As far as Flinn the sawmaker, I believe their saws are some of the best bargains on the market today. The Pax 14" sash saw (rip) I purchased close to a year ago has become a favorite of mine, performing rips and cross-cuts equally well. The price I paid for the saw (around $110 US, with walnut handle) makes it a true bargain, particularly in comparison to the US boutique makers, with the Pax equal or superior to any task the others perform.

Our craft needs multiple, stable suppliers and competition is healthy, giving us consumers choices as well as competitive pricing.

 

[iNewbie]

Everyone wishes the Flinn company well -- and a hefty Cast Iron clip round-the-ear for whoever suggested changing their Heritage colour!

[Alan Sugar] You're Fired [/Alan Sugar] :mrgreen:

 

[JimB]

I think that it would be a good publicity idea given all the argument to have a sale at half price especially for those who live in Victoria, Australia. 8)

 

[Vann]

...you have the bench plane market covered but there is a need for a british block plane and more. I know that requires investment and time to develop but it needs to happen.

The development appears to have been done...

...in green :mrgreen:

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Fromey]

Don't forget, the no. 62 and the no. 9 are also block planes.