What a difference a saw makes.....

[Cheshirechappie]

The names of different backsaws does seem to have changed somewhat over the years. Holtzappfel in 1847 defined the saws pretty much as the Popular Woodworking article, but by the time I was at school in the 1970s and doing home woodwork in the 1980s, there were basically only dovetail and tenon saws, both available filed crosscut only, the dovetail being 8 - 10" long, and the tenon 12 - 14" long. Gent's saws were also about, but the longer saws of 16 - 20" had disappeared altogether. It's only since the handwork revival and people researching the 'old ways' over the last 15 years or so that the older saw-names have made a reappearance, and the boutique sawmakers started making them again. Good thing too - more variety means more choice, and more information around means a better chance to everybody to better fit their saws to their work.

 

[worn thumbs]

All my back saws have been purchased off eBay or boot sales, most are over 100 years old and are made like Rolls Royce's, a sharpen and clean up and there are very few modern saws that can match them, those that can are 50 times their cost.

Thats how I get my saws if they crop up when I'm passing.A few minutes with some Scotch-Brite and a sharpen and set and I expect to have a good saw.Maybe its an advantage being a dinosaur with the ability to use a saw file.

 

[Jelly]

All my back saws have been purchased off eBay or boot sales, most are over 100 years old and are made like Rolls Royce's...

... Maybe its an advantage being a dinosaur with the ability to use a saw file.

No maybe about it, the ability to sharpen a saw is invaluable, certainly the ¾ ‒ 1½ hours it takes me to sharpen a saw is usually well worth it; I value my time, but I don't think it's worth £50 ‒ £90 an hour, which is the kind of savings I make by sharpening an old boot-sale saw rather than buying new of equivalent quality.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

All my back saws have been purchased off eBay or boot sales, most are over 100 years old and are made like Rolls Royce's...

... Maybe its an advantage being a dinosaur with the ability to use a saw file.

No maybe about it, the ability to sharpen a saw is invaluable, certainly the ¾ ‒ 1½ hours it takes me to sharpen a saw is usually well worth it; I value my time, but I don't think it's worth £50 ‒ £90 an hour, which is the kind of savings I make by sharpening an old boot-sale saw rather than buying new of equivalent quality.

Sharpening a saw takes no more than 5 - 8 minutes (rip) a little longer perhaps for X-cut granted.

Even a badly shaped and set saw, purchased from ebay doesn't take 1 1/2 hours to make ready.

David

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I think it depends just how bad the saw is. A quick tickle up to saw that's a bit dull but otherwise in good condition is indeed a fairly quick job, but refurbishing an Ebay horror can be much more demanding. I had one that had been so badly sharpened over the years that the toothline was about 1/8" hollow, which meant jointing the ends, reshaping, re-jointing, re-shaping, then a final jointing and reshaping to get a straight toothline with all the teeth evenly spaced - before setting and final sharpening. That took a while.

 

[JonnyW]

Thanks for that Jelly. I own a Lie Nielsen dovetail and their new longer crosscut carcass saw. To tell you the truth, the carcass saw really is a versatile saw; it can handle the ripping of tenons no problem at all, however it is let down by the blade depth. Hence my need for a deeper tenon saw.

I do own an old antique cross cut tenon saw that I should really make an attempt at sharpening, as the blade is lovely and straight, however, I'd love the thing re-cut to rip, and that is way beyond my ability.

Jonny

 

[JonnyW]

I think it depends just how bad the saw is. A quick tickle up to saw that's a bit dull but otherwise in good condition is indeed a fairly quick job, but refurbishing an Ebay horror can be much more demanding. I had one that had been so badly sharpened over the years that the toothline was about 1/8" hollow, which meant jointing the ends, reshaping, re-jointing, re-shaping, then a final jointing and reshaping to get a straight toothline with all the teeth evenly spaced - before setting and final sharpening. That took a while.

Cheshirechappie - what do you mean by jointing?

Jonny

 

[AndyT]

I do own an old antique cross cut tenon saw that I should really make an attempt at sharpening, as the blade is lovely and straight, however, I'd love the thing re-cut to rip, and that is way beyond my ability.

Jonny

You may be over-estimating the difficulty of doing just that.

I restored a really beaten up old tenon saw a while back (full story here https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/bristol-saw-restoration-t86283.html). In doing so, I went from crossscut (well, what was left of it) to rip, effectively filing new teeth using the old ones to show the spacing. Because the teeth were small, the amount of metal I had to remove was small, which actually made it quicker and easier than my previous attempt, which was on a big crosscut handsaw where I stripped off the old teeth, stuck on a paper template and started from scratch.

The breakthrough for me on the tenon saw was that I watched and followed Paul Sellers video here http://youtu.be/UA5DixEaaUo which I found really clear and helpful.

 

[pedder]

The breakthrough for me on the tenon saw was that I watched and followed Paul Sellers video here http://youtu.be/UA5DixEaaUo which I found really clear and helpful.

I know Sellers is kind of a national hero in UK, so I may not critisize him,
but please stop before the "trick" at 25:43. This "trick" makes the gullet
smaller without any advantage. Better use a needle file, if you want a better finish.

And use the hole file. You've paid for it.

And.... Better watch the "Andy the Brit" video and make him your saw sharpening hero.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-_MF2Mnxwc

It is 300% longer, but 2 gazillion percent better.

Cheers
Pedder

 

[AndyT]

Thanks Pedder. I'd not rewatched the video before posting and had forgotten some of it...

The thing that helped the most was just pointing out how easy it was to convert a saw from crosscut to rip, which is what you want for cutting tenons.

Although optimised for the cheeks, for small crosscuts such as cutting tenon shoulders, the rip-filed saw works well, which was news to me.

 

[G S Haydon]

The names of different backsaws does seem to have changed somewhat over the years. Holtzappfel in 1847 defined the saws pretty much as the Popular Woodworking article, but by the time I was at school in the 1970s and doing home woodwork in the 1980s, there were basically only dovetail and tenon saws, both available filed crosscut only, the dovetail being 8 - 10" long, and the tenon 12 - 14" long. Gent's saws were also about, but the longer saws of 16 - 20" had disappeared altogether. It's only since the handwork revival and people researching the 'old ways' over the last 15 years or so that the older saw-names have made a reappearance, and the boutique sawmakers started making them again. Good thing too - more variety means more choice, and more information around means a better chance to everybody to better fit their saws to their work.

I'd agree on that too CC. Only referred to as Tenon or Dovetail when I started work and no sign of a rip file.

 

[Jelly]

Sharpening a saw takes no more than 5 - 8 minutes (rip) a little longer perhaps for X-cut granted.

Even a badly shaped and set saw, purchased from ebay doesn't take 1 1/2 hours to make ready.

David

Depends on the saw and the amount of damage, I've done quite a few odd saws recently, a 24" 15 TPI mitre saw which needed 8 passes to get the teeth properly shaped again after jointing, and a 25TPI Dovetail saw which was just awkward.

You're right that just touching up a not quite sharp but well set up saw should only take a short time, I tend to budget 30 mins as I'm really slow at setting Saws, 5-10 mins to file, 20+ to set, 2 to test and stone it.

I do own an old antique cross cut tenon saw that I should really make an attempt at sharpening, as the blade is lovely and straight, however, I'd love the thing re-cut to rip, and that is way beyond my ability.

It's not beyond anyone's ability, but it will (like anything in woodwork) take time and practice to get the hang of.
The tools to do it are cheap too, which helps when you're taking a punt at doing your first one (also slightly battered Saws are cheap on ebay, if you want to learn on a saw that doesn't matter so much to you).

When I get home I'll post a drawing of my DIY saw vice if you're interested, I probably have some spare files sat around too if you'd like one to get you going, just tell me how many teeth to the inch on your saw.

The basic process is thus:

• Jointing is running a long, flat second cut engineers file along the top of the saw line to get all the teeth level.
  
  After jointing, using the saw file you re-cut the gullets taking an equal number of strokes in each until there are no flat spots on the saw line.
  
  It's then set with the saw-set, and lightly rubbed with a fine stone on each side.

There are a good few long articles on saw filing online, well worth reading as many as you can and picking the ideas that make sense to you. There are a few variations on making wooden file guides, which were *really* useful when I was first learning.

 

[G S Haydon]

Andy it's interesting to hear you got on well with the rip for x cutting. I changed mine to a rip file and don't find it works to well for me. With shoulders being so critical I still much prefer a x cut.

That said I think if I were to relax the rake a bit it could help. With good value saws about I've found more Joy with a dedicated rip and a x cut. I might try a half-way house next time and see how I go with that.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I think it depends just how bad the saw is. A quick tickle up to saw that's a bit dull but otherwise in good condition is indeed a fairly quick job, but refurbishing an Ebay horror can be much more demanding. I had one that had been so badly sharpened over the years that the toothline was about 1/8" hollow, which meant jointing the ends, reshaping, re-jointing, re-shaping, then a final jointing and reshaping to get a straight toothline with all the teeth evenly spaced - before setting and final sharpening. That took a while.

Cheshirechappie - what do you mean by jointing?

Jonny

Jelly pretty much explained it in his post - the process of running a flat file along the toothline to even up the heights of each tooth. However, just to add a bit more, here's a few deatails.

The saw is held in the saw-vice with about 1/4" to 1/2" standing proud. Most texts suggest a mill saw file (because that was what most sawmill saw-doctors had to hand) but any flat or hand file of about 8" or 10" long and second cut or smooth will serve. You can get jointing guides to hold the file, or make a wooden one, but I find that it's easier without one. Place the file flat on the toothline and pointing along it, then with the fingers and thumb of both hands, grip the edges of the file. The index fingers of both hands can apply pressure to the middle of the file's upper flat face. Starting at one end of the saw, move the file slowly along the toothline, applying fair pressure. Don't try to move too fast - it should take two or three seconds to complete a stroke, depending on the saw length. After about five strokes, check the tips of the saw-teeth for flats, which being fresh metal, will shine in the light. Repeat until every tooth has a 'shiner'; they're now jointed, and the saw can be reset lower in the vice and the sawfile used to reshape the teeth until every shiner JUST disappears again. The saw can now be set, and finally a light pass made with the sawfile to sharpen each tooth.

Jointing isn't something you need to do every time you sharpen a saw, but it will be needed when a secondhand saw is refurbished, or as good practice every few (say five or so) ordinary sharpenings just to ensure that every tooth is doing it's share of work.

Pedder mentioned BritAndy's youtube video 'Sharpening Western Saws', which is a bit long, but well worth the watch to see the processes in action. It's a belting introduction to the subject of saw sharpening - highly recommended.

 

[JonnyW]

Cheshirechappie, much appreciated mate. Yep I know exactly what you're meaning. I do recall looking at the Verita jointer.

Saw sharpening is something I will have to try and get my head around. A very useful skill.

Thanks again

Jonny

 

[swagman]

Hi Jonny. You can always go the full turkey and purchase a limited edition Carcass Saw for a mere 450.00 (uk pounds) :roll:
http://skeltonsaws.co.uk/our-products/

Stewie;