Walnut dining table

[gasman]

I bought some lovely walnut last weekend from Andychip38 of this parish (thanks Andy its lovely wood)
SWMBO wants a new dining table and she really likes this design

It has an interesting design but I don't know how the maker gets it strong enough.
The legs are part through the top as shown here

It looks like there is a rail between each pair of legs but no rails along the length of the table.
It also looks like there are screws or wooden dowels used - one visible on the table top going down into the leg and 2 visible on the side of the leg

So far so good - however I don't get how big splits don't open up as the table acclimatises in a CH house. We all know that no matter how many weeks you acclimatise the wood for, once the finished work is inside a CH heated house it will move a bit. The table top will shrink by a few mm which must surely leave a gap at either side. On the website http://www.studiomoe.com there are other tables, some of which look like the rail between the legs doesn't actually join the legs - and presumably just acts to prevent movement of the table top - in which case I don't see how the table can possibly be strong enough to resist lateral movement of the legs - it is a solid thick top so must weigh a ton
Anyone any clever explanations??
Thanks all
Regards Mark

 

[Adam9453]

Are you sure there isn't a centre rail running the length between the legs. It would add a lot of strength and be hidden when viewing the table from most normal angles.
I agree about the concern over the top shrinking and opening up gaps where the leg top join is.
I would imagine the rail that run betweens the legs underneath (width ways) has a little tolerance left in the joints to allow the top and legs to shrink inwards without the rail pushing the legs out of the top (left unglued I presume). The crucial purpose of the end rails is to stop it racking so this should be ok in my opinion.
Happy to be corrected or educated by the more experienced on the forum

 

[Fitzroy]

or it could be a carp design that doesn't work in practice ;D

 

[thetyreman]

there could be a hidden piece of wood in the centre running between the rails lengthways, it is a shame you can't see underneath.

 

[deema]

Well, it might not actually be a solid wood top. The grain on the edge doesn't appear to match the top, and although the picture isn't clear it looks to me to be lacking any end grain.

A solid top that's restricted by the legs with stringers across the the grain isn't likely to last a season due to movement. However, a man made substrate veneered top with hardwood lipings can be internally strengthened with say metal bar and be perfectly happy with the legs system.

 

[Beau]

or it could be a carp design that doesn't work in practice ;D

At first glance would agree with that summary.

Could be more to the eye going on underneath though.

Edit. Presuming this is the same table looks like there is more than meets the eye underneath http://www.houzz.com/photos/9023387/Osl ... bles-other

There is defiantly something going on with that rail just as it vanishes from view

 

[MusicMan]

Yes that's right, Beau, possibly a slit to allow movement. From this website, the top is clearly a slab though - you can see the grain, and besides, it says so.

I can't help feeling that whatever is going on underneath, the design does not have much strength again lateral movement of the legs.

 

[Bodgers]

Have no advice, but just want to say your wife has good taste - the Mid century modern look is strong in this one.

You need to make some Hans Wegner style chairs to match....


Sent from my MI 3W using Tapatalk

 

[david123]

If it's B/American walnut it fades quickly in sunlight, having said that I like the orange colour it fades to having used it on other things in the past.
Sounds like a good project.

 

[Racers]

I would keep the good bits, tapered legs no visible stretchers and solid top and junk the legs through the top.

A rail between the legs and a couple set in from the sides between them would work.

Pete

 

[Austinisgreat]

Where's Custard the pink cat when you need him most?

Prolly making furniture :lol:

Table looks nice but agree it looks like veneer on edges.

Andrew

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

The top looks like it's 4 planks wide that are book matched rather than 1 wide board. I'd recommend using Osmo finish to prevent fading

 

[gasman]

Thanks guys
I absolutely love this forum - such a plethora of wise and interesting opinions and advice - and so quickly answered. I'm going to have a play around with sketchup over the next few days. I do think it is solid wood - the website talks about all the wood being salvaged
I will have a think about the ideas to prevent gaps opening up
Edit - just found this page with an image which looks a lot like there is no central rail - but I agree this would be a better way to achieve stability
http://www.studiomoe.com/press_pdf/Re-nest.pdf
Thanks so much once again fellers
Kind regards
Mark

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

if it's salvaged timber it should be low moisture content depending where it was obtained from. That would influence the design if you could be sure table would not warp

 

[custard]

I'm pretty sure it is a solid top. I'd guess there are one or two stretchers running the length of the table, underneath and towards the centre between the two end leg sub assemblies. In that respect it's not too different to many trestle style dining tables. The stretchers will give some racking resistance, the through leg arrangement will add a bit more (similar to a Roubo Bench, just not quite as robust!). As long as you don't drag it across a rough stone floor, or move house too often, then it'd probably last fine for a few years. It's not the sturdiest of designs, but neither is it the flimsiest dining table I've ever seen.

I've made a few pieces of furniture where the legs come through the top. Some in solid timber, some veneered.

Here's a hall table and mirror I made in solid timber with legs that come through the top.

There's a precise 0.5mm gap around the legs plus a chamfer so that any subsequent shrinkage wouldn't be too obvious. It worked out better than I first thought, this is a one drawer version but I've subsequently made a slightly larger two drawer version. I made sure the timber was as dry as I could get it before cutting and assembly in order to minimise subsequent shrinkage. At this scale of furniture I'd say it's a do-able technique.

As a comparison here's a desk I made, also with legs that come through the top.

This is the point for me, in terms of size and scale, when I'd no longer be comfortable working in solid wood. This is a relatively complex mix of solid and veneered timber. The legs are solid, there are some substantial solid lippings, and some of the curved components (like the curved drawer fronts) are solid but laminated. The desk basically consists of three sub assemblies, two pairs of legs with connecting end rails, and a central section largely made with saw cut veneers from the same boards as the solid components. They all needed to be made to pretty extreme levels of precision as the three sub assemblies need to joint together and be absolutely gap free..and remain that way for many years to come!

I like the design you linked to, it's not a complete beginner's piece but neither is it all that difficult to make. However, despite admiring its looks, personally I wouldn't be comfortable offering it for sale as I just don't think it's robust enough to qualify as a commercial offering. That's just a judgement call every maker has to make. For example I had a client in the US who wanted to order a larger console table based on the one in the first photo, but I refused the commission as the location would have made it more susceptible to seasonal timber movement, plus it would be a long way away if there was any remedial work required!

Good luck!

 

[custard]

I've just seen your subsequent link. You're right, there are no longitudinal stretchers.

If you sat at that table you'd feel it rack and sway as you rested your elbows on it. On an 8' long table weighing the thick end of 100 kilos that wouldn't be a good feeling!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

If you look closely at the image below you'll notice the rail has a vertical 'cut-out' not far in from the inside face of the leg. This suggests to me the rail might be made of two wide parts linked together with the ability to slide horizontally in relation to each other, hence the gap or 'cut-out' as I described it. There might be something quite sophisticated like dovetail housing(s) in each part, plus a dovetail key or keys - a simpler sliding mechanism is another possibility. This would allow for cross-grain movement in the table top's width. I could, of course, be completely wrong, and the cut-out thing is purely decorative, but I ask the question, "Why, if it has no function, and is not readily seen?"

I too wonder about the rigidity of the structure lengthways, but studiomoe seem to have quite a few variations on this theme at their website, so perhaps the rigidity is more than adequate. Slainte.

 

[dzj]

Unless, as Sgian Dubh says, there is some hidden mechanism in the stretcher, the expanding table top
will (as it expands) exert unfavorable forces on the leg/ stretcher joint. Presumably a mortise/ tenon variety.
This is one of the reasons a Roubo bench doesn't have a stretcher under the bench top.

 

[Beau]

If you look closely at the image below you'll notice the rail has a vertical 'cut-out' not far in from the inside face of the leg. This suggests to me the rail might be made of two wide parts linked together with the ability to slide horizontally in relation to each other, hence the gap or 'cut-out' as I described it. There might be something quite sophisticated like dovetail housing(s) in each part, plus a dovetail key or keys - a simpler sliding mechanism is another possibility. This would allow for cross-grain movement in the table top's width. I could, of course, be completely wrong, and the cut-out thing is purely decorative, but I ask the question, "Why, if it has no function, and is not readily seen?"

I too wonder about the rigidity of the structure lengthways, but studiomoe seem to have quite a few variations on this theme at their website, so perhaps the rigidity is more than adequate. Slainte.

I think you are right. I was doodling how it might work and came up with a similar solution. Basically the rail is two parts and joined by a floating scarf joint.

 

[gasman]

Thanks again gents - all very interesting. Theres yet another photo which is interesting in the press section of the website of a slightly different table which shows the rail appears to be in pieces as suggested

I wonder whether the 3 plugs visible - one above each leg and 2 through the leg laterally into the top - are actually plugs covering screws or whether they are dowels
Thanks again
Mark