Wagon vice or tail vice?

[Anonymous]

Hi all

Well, I recently started to build a nice new Beech bench and it is well under way. Within a day or two, I intend to add a tail vice of some sort.

So, how do you feel about the traditional type

http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/6/product-Axminster-Heavy-Duty-Bench-with-Drawer-21594.htm

versus the Wagon type?

http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Wagon+Vise+Version+40.aspx

I am struggling to see when I would use the extra clamping faces of the tail vice (main vice on other end), but it is the more common type and one would think that it has to offer something worth having over the wagon type?

The wagon is easy to build and leaves plenty of benchtop to use on the right.

 

[Colin C]

HI Tony

I added a traditional type vice to my wooden bench as I have used them at work.
I like that you can use it to clamp bits that way to make it easier to work on plus, I see that the other one would have the problem of trying to keep the shavings and dust out.

Ps no pic's :shock:

 

[mr]

DO you need either?
I have a traditional stylee end vice and it rarely gets used. I used to use it for holding stock for planing and then moved on to a planing stop and have hardly used the thing since.
Mike

 

[houtslager]

hmm okay let me stir the pot some more :twisted:

I have ( now back from an extended loan out ) a trad. ULMIA bench which has a front vise and a "normal" tail vise. AND one I made a modern ROUBO bench with 2 3/4" pipe clamps in the middle and a ROUBO HOOK on the front.Under this I have a SLIDING FULL WIDTH support.This is great for 90% of my planning of any edges. On the left hand side in conjunxtion with the HOOK I use aT square[ for want of a better word] for planning panels.

If piccies are wanted you;ll have to wait a while as this bench has a 19th cent. CoDrwr on it.

HS - Sleepless in Germany

 

[Alf]

Like all other bench features, it depends I imagine. I use my tail vice quite a bit, usually either to hold my mechanics vice or because something else is being held in the face vice. It also gets used as an improputu holder for supporting work.

Nothing in the wide world would induce me to have a bench without one. But that's just me.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Tony,

Don't know if you have a copy of the Scott Landis "Workbench Book", but there's a nice version of the Wagon type vice, built by a bloke called David Powell, on pages 130-131, complete with construction details.

Wouldn't be without an end vice myself. I have a Record 52D as my end vice and I use it all the time.

Cheers :ho2

Paul

 

[Philly]

Tony
I use my trad style one a fair bit. It also doubles up as a "shave-horse", too.
They are a bit fiddly to make, though.
HTH
Philly

 

[Mike.C]

Tony, I have the Axminster heavy duty bench that you show in your link and I wouldn't be without the trad vice.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Tony, good luck with your bench, any chance of a photo or 2 as it comes together??

The way I work at present I dont use or need a tail vice of any sort. I plane up to a 2 inch square oak bench stop that pops up from the bench top when needed. I also use a pair of "valets d'etabli" (forged holdfast's) to hold down for chopping out mortices, holding seat's for drilling etc. Sounds sort of similar to houtslagers set up? Lets see those pictures please houts :lol: Are you using the pipe clamps as holdfast's?

However if I did decide to include a tail vise I think I'd tend towards the so called wagon type, even possibly a pair of them one left, one right, so you'd end up with like a pair of giant permanent sash cramps built in to the bench? Sort of like the one shown in Mr Ellis's book. The other "traditional" type will have problems with racking out of square unless you 1/ always place the work to be clamped directly in line with the bench screw ie in the centre of the bench (if the vise is in the bench's centre that is) which isnt always conveneint, or 2/ have 2 seperate bench screw's, running independently like on Michael Dunbar's chair making bench (useful for taper'd pieces but much slower to adjust), or somehow link'd together with bike sprockets and chain. I think that set up is mentioned in the workbench book somewhere, and is also manufactured in Canada is it?? :wink:

 

[Alf]

The other "traditional" type will have problems with racking out of square unless you 1/ always place the work to be clamped directly in line with the bench screw ie in the centre of the bench (if the vise is in the bench's centre that is) which isnt always conveneint, or 2/ have 2 seperate bench screw's, running independently like on Michael Dunbar's chair making bench (useful for taper'd pieces but much slower to adjust), or somehow link'd together with bike sprockets and chain.

Or a simple spacer

Cheers, Alf

 

[AndyBoyd]

A trad tail vice for me as you can use both the dog and the vise for clamping and holding.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the input you lot.

I am still undecided but the majority of you clearly prefer the trad tail vice and I am likely to go that way.
I currently have a bench I made from 3" thick pine about 7 years ago. I didn't even think of fitting a tail vice (it was fantastic leaving the MDF bench behind :wink: ) and have regretted it recently (the past 7 years!).

Photos would not be very impressive as at the moment I have all the sub-frame pieces ready for glue-up (tenons will need the final fine tuning and planing first) and a top that is glued up but needs planing flat and so looks a bit rough at the moment.


Alf, nice tips. I rather like the anti-racking device shown in this one and intend to make myself one

 

[Anonymous]

Alf, nice tips. I rather like the anti-racking device shown in this one and intend to make myself one

That will be great to use on a second vise in "normal" mode, but I thought a tail vise's job was to pinch stock between 2 dog's-one in the bench, one in the top of the vice jaw that moves, to hold stuff firm and flat for planing?? The german/polish L shape and this wagon type go more or less "in line" like a sash cramp which is ideal for that stock pinching function without any racking, but a traditional vise will rack if the dog is put to one side or the other and not the centre, that is what I meant before. And a spacer wont be any use if you use it in that mode (well it might but it would be too much messing about to keep adjusting it) Like you Tony, I cant think of any use for a second "normal" vise on the end of my bench but thats just my way of working :wink: It depends what you do mostly I supose, if you hand plane lots of long/thin stock the wagon/tail vise would be a good bet? Any work that I could do on a normal end vise I'd do on the front one anyway.

Cheers Mr S :lol:

 

[AndyBoyd]

I too have an anti racking device which is simply a wooden screw with a square head, that sits within a square mortice in the vise face when fully retracted. A very useful piece of kit.

Mind you Alf's is simpler to make, reminded me a lot of that guy on the BBC Dragons den who built a plastic version of that to level pub tables

Have a very merry Xmas one and all

 

[Alf]

Mr S, I think we must be at cross purposes a little here, 'cos I'm confused. We are talking about a wagon vice vs. an L-shaped jobby, aren't we? Not a face vice as a tail vice at all.

Cheers, Alf

 

[woodbloke]

I have agree with others and use a traditional tail vice...never thought of Alf's idea of using an adjustable packing block, which is an excellent notion.... so its off the the 'shop this morning then :lol: - Rob

 

[manso]

If you are still unsure, have you had a look at the Veritas Twin-Screw Vise, (referred to by mr spanton), on the Lee Valley site?

 

[Anonymous]

Mr S, I think we must be at cross purposes a little here, 'cos I'm confused. We are talking about a wagon vice vs. an L-shaped jobby, aren't we? Not a face vice as a tail vice at all.

Cheers, Alf

A thousand pardones, of course you are correct. When thw word traditional was used I thought of traditional British vises. This just goes to show how bad my eyesight is, as I wrongly took the axminister picture to be of a face vise on the end of the bench, I failed to notice it was a traditional eastern europe style L vise :roll: :roll:, hence why I was trying to point out that putting a dog into a (end fitted) face vise wasnt necessarily a good idea Without glasses to me text is just a grey cloud, and sometimes my eyes just crash and I cannot focus on things. Pretty worrying at 46 especially as the ear sight's almost as bad. I go to collect a pait of varifocals next week however so I hope things will be improving also with the typing error's.
Back to the original post though.
Between the L vice and the wagon vice I think I'd still go for a pair of wagon vice's. To be honest I have never used a L vice, but I imagine that if it isnt superbly acurately made you could get problems with it sagging at the corner or the L going out of square and stuff?? And probably the hardware will cost more? It depends what type of works you do most, level of technical skill for building and depth of pocket to pay for it as well :lol:
Anyway Tony whatever you decide to do good luck. Sorry for the mix up folks cheers Mr S :?: