Wadkin Vs Wadkin Bursgreen

[TheTiddles]

I’ve got a toolpost and toolholders made in China. They are superb quality, every bit as good as anything British, German or Swiss that I have used. And yes, I paid duty when I imported them, quite a bit of duty in fact.
I’m typing this on an iPad, made in China. I’m just about to build a cnc machine - most of the components will come from China. I bet that everyone posting in this thread is typing on a Chinese computer, and have a Chinese tv in their living rooms.

This is a very enlightened opinion that is sadly quite rare.

I have moral objections to the Chinese regime too, but I'm also a realist.

Aidan

 

[Vann]

The problem is nobody would be prepared to pay the price of machines built in the traditional ‘Wadkin’ way today. It’s a shame, but a reality...

I think you're right. We're really lucky that we can pick up £10,000, £20,000, £30,000 machines for under £1000 and do them up for about the same. It's a testament to the quality of the original build - and probably not a very good business model.

It's not the fault of China that western businesses specify cheap (& nasty) machinery to undercut their competitors. I do have other issues with China however, and try hard to avoid their products (which isn't easy).

Cheers, Vann.

 

[ScottandSargeant]

I will have rifle around my files to find some old Wadkin price lists when I get a chance... i will try to adjust for inflation and see how they compare to today’s prices.

 

[Ttrees]

In the USA, Northfield are still producing stuff like old Wadkin and the likes.
I cannot download the PDF reader for their 2020 price list.
Have a look for yourself...
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist.htmOr have a look around with Matt and Dema

 

[Doug71]

I am always surprised and impressed that Sedgwick keep going, back in the day they seemed to be thought of as the poor mans Wadkin yet today they are still making quality machinery. Are they the only proper woodworking machinery manufacturer we have left?

 

[Trevanion]

I am always surprised and impressed that Sedgwick keep going, back in the day they seemed to be thought of as the poor mans Wadkin yet today they are still making quality machinery. Are they the only proper woodworking machinery manufacturer we have left?

I think so. I remember seeing somewhere that they said "Instead of pushing the prices up every year we've tried our best to keep prices roughly the same but cut costs where we can on the machines without lowering the quality" or something along those lines. You could argue there are more bits to break these days because of the number of plastic handles and etc but those are all pretty much easily sourced and fairly inexpensive replacements whilst the main gubbins of the machines are solid.

I've got a soft spot for Segwick machines, the fact that there are still so many Sedgwick machines out there perfectly usable after decades of heavy use is testament to the build quality. My Sedgwick morticer must be 50 years old or more and it still makes a perfectly good mortice to the same standard as any other machine today!

Interesting bit from their website:

"Sedgwick Woodworking Machinery are the UK’s highest volume manufacturers of classical woodworking machinery.

At the heart of the Sedgwick philosophy is an appreciation of traditional engineering standards, and a determination to provide genuine life cycle value to all Sedgwick Machines.

Sedgwick are committed to the development and production of new and existing products targeted specifically at the professional, semi-professional and education markets.

All woodworking machines are designed and built here in the UK using the latest in Computer Aided Design and Manufacture and CNC Machine Tools. The first Sedgwick Woodworking Machinery Workshop was opened in Bramley near Leeds, and it was here that the original 571 Hollow Chisel Morticer (which is still in production) was designed and built.

In 1963 Maurice was joined full-time by his son John, and the workforce moved to Pudsey, where they commenced building of additional Sedgwick machinery types, including saws, planer thicknesser, and spindle moulders. A new factory was built in 1985 in Stanningley, West Yorkshire under John Sedgwick’s design and guidance to house a larger production facility and to ensure room for further expansion.

John continues to supply the direction for Sedgwick, specifically heading up the design and development department and aiding in the selection of new materials and suppliers."

 

[TheTiddles]

I will have rifle around my files to find some old Wadkin price lists when I get a chance... i will try to adjust for inflation and see how they compare to today’s prices.

Yes please, that’d be interesting. I think someone did that before and they were kinda pricey
Aidan

 

[MilesH]

An example using a machine that almost everyone knows, the Wadkin Bursgreen AGS 10" sawbench :
In 1964 the 3ph version was £115. Adjusted for inflation with the calculator here gives the equivalent in 2019 as £2348

The Sedgwick LK sawbench (3ph.) was £168 in 1969 (£2786 adjusted for inflation). So, Sedgwick are doing pretty well.......
One thing that's really surprising is that to get the LK with a single phase motor was £22 extra. That's £365 pounds more to have a single phase motor!

 

[Eldi76]

Meanwhile I received an offer for a free pick up of a Wadkin 24” (the owner doesn't know if it's RM or FM). The seller bought it years ago from a navy base and kept it.
I was happy for a minute until I received the photos - to a layman like me the machine looks in pretty bad shape. What do you think? Does it seem like a hopeless case for restoration?

 

[RobinBHM]

I am interested in purchasing a surface planer and a thicknesser

if you were in the Uk I would recommend a second hand S400 wadkin surface planer

but as you are in Australia maybe try and find an old SCM machine.

the old Wadkins like RM are great but they have short surface planer beds

if you do joinery like doors etc, the best planer you can get is a 400mm x 2600mm -fantastic for flattening out twisted timber or bows.

they are available for between £2500 to £4000 in the UK

an old SCM invincible machine is great -real heavy duty.

something like this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/3240491496...BW6p1dy627KCTpzHIfXxi720HZffFldhoCRM0QAvD_BwE

 

[Eldi76]

if you were in the Uk I would recommend a second hand S400 wadkin surface planer

but as you are in Australia maybe try and find an old SCM machine.

the old Wadkins like RM are great but they have short surface planer beds

if you do joinery like doors etc, the best planer you can get is a 400mm x 2600mm -fantastic for flattening out twisted timber or bows.

they are available for between £2500 to £4000 in the UK

an old SCM invincible machine is great -real heavy duty.

something like this:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/3240491496...BW6p1dy627KCTpzHIfXxi720HZffFldhoCRM0QAvD_BwE

Thank you RobinBHM. Although I am not in the UK, I plan to purchase an old Wadkin, let an expert restore it, in the UK, to the best possible condition, and ship it to Australia.
I’ve checked SCM here in Australia, they cost £3000 - £4000 for used ones, similar to the prices in the UK. I assume that for this price I could get the old Wadkin + restoration. Maybe I would need to add a bit, but I really want a Wadkin!

 

[MilesH]

There are quite a few Wadkin machines in Australia... Have you advertised there?

 

[Eldi76]

There are quite a few Wadkin machines in Australia... Have you advertised there?

Yes, I have. I received two calls last day - the two photos above are of one machine. The other machine looks much better, but the owner is not 100% sure he wants to sell, I am waiting and hoping...

 

[Droogs]

Depending on what the 2nd is priced at compared to probable refurb costs. If it was in the UK and all I had to do was pick it up, I would defo go for the first. It wont give back in cash the cost of the refurb at auction but once stripped, blasted and rebuilt with new bearings ets and a good scrape of the beds etc will more than recover the cost in use over the long term. i would even look at getting a shelix cutter for it

 

[Jelly]

The above remarks may be correct for the car manufacturers wrecked by unions and management,

This is a huge oversimplification that's effectively taken as a truism these days, and it deeply irritates me (being that industrial strategy and policy is one of the things I've specialised in over the past decade).

The automotive industry was wrecked by the "Picking Winners" approach of the various governments (both labour and conservative) which directly interfered in the running of various nationalised and quasi-nationalised companies with neither any real understanding of what they were doing, nor the foresight to understand how the markets those companies sold to were changing.

By the time the Unionists really started kicking off, the damage was already done, and when you listen to detailed accounts from the primary sources, its clear that by the early 70's both management and union figures were already well aware that it was only a matter of time until a precipitous collapse.

As a result, the 70's were spent with that whole industry sector (management and labour force alike) effectively fighting amongst themselves (at company, plant and department levels) to ensure that their particular bit would survive when that came...

Predictably, but nevertheless kind of ironically this lack of unity and inward-looking outlook had pretty much the opposite effect, and it was only with foreign investment, the formation of the Automotive Council, and subsequent sector deals from the DTI and it's successors, that the remaining players were able to get back on the straight and narrow.

but we had a thriving furniture industry until clowns in the Cotswolds started "carefully assembling" the contents of containers from China.

To me, this speaks clearly of one of the factors that lurker was talking about:

Our manufacturing was killed by a combination of management greed and complacency.

If the management was less complacent, they would have seen that coming a mile off (or maybe a bit closer given I'm speaking with the benefit of hindsight, but certainly they should have been able to see it coming in time to react, even if they couldn't proactively identify it).

IKEA's "Clear out your chintz" campaign in the early 90's should have been a warning shot across the bows of furniture manufacturers that change was coming, and they would need to adapt to survive. At that point the quality of the furniture UK manufacturers made was still a good way to differentiate from the new competitor on the block; but the designs* weren't really changing to meet consumer tastes or expectations.

It should have been obvious from what had happened to the consumer electronics industry in the 60's and the automotive industry in the 80's & 90's that:

They were very vulnerable to:

• The business model of importing products cheaply made overseas, which were of adequate quality, but at lower cost and to suit every conceivable taste (or lack thereof).
• The rise and rise of conspicuous consumption, meaning that it became desirable to frequently renew one's possessions.
• The (wholly connected) ever decreasing awareness of (and importance to) consumers of the functionality and durability of products, relative to their superficial appearance.
• The power of brand and marketing.

And

• The dawn of "Free Trade" meant that there were even lower barriers to people importing foreign alternatives at lower prices, making the risk even higher.

But nothing changed, and about a decade after the swedes arrived, drop-shippers like "Oak Generic Hardwood Furniture Tat Land" appeared on the scene realising a number of things:

1. People knew that furniture from the likes of IKEA wasn't as sturdy or durable as "Solid Wood" furniture
2. There wasn't a really well known national brand that you could go to for true quality furniture.
3. People didn't really know what made furniture "good quality" anyway.
4. There was actually a market rate for quality furniture, which indicated what prices could be supported.
5. That the general population was unaware of this market rate, so you could charge prices just very slightly lower than those a charged when craftsman had carefully constructed the product, whilst all the while indirectly intimating via an aggressive marketing campaign that you were a far cheaper option than the alternative and they'd never afford to go out and buy the real thing. Thus attracting much higher margins on your poor quality tat.

And that, was (very quickly) that.

What's particularly alarming of course, is that for the most part, it was in the business model and marketing, rather than by competing on price which we saw the the drop-shippers win out over the traditional enterprises...

The very same business model pioneered by UK upholstery retailers like DFS (who still manufacture in the UK to this day) around the same time IKEA arrived on the scene a decade earlier.


*I've always found it odd that whilst the UK has continued to produce designers and craftsmen who produce innovative and beautiful furniture to the current day, at some point in the late 1940's this wealth of UK skill, became seemingly detached from our mass-manufactured furniture.

I agree with your sentiments about British manufacturing, but much of that was dead before the Chinese started sending stuff here.
Our manufacturing was killed by a combination of management greed and complacency.

That's definitely a factor but is not the whole story... The way in which politics has acted as an unseen hand changing in fundamental ways how our economy functions has a lot to do with Just How Badly things have gone for the manufacturing (and other capital intensive) sector(s) of UK PLC and UK SME's.

The 80's saw a fundamental shift in the assumptions that underpinned economic policy, from a system which was empirically shown to be somewhat accurate, to a system with little evidence to support it and founded on some ideological assumptions which weren't well supported, but were convenient to politicians of the era.

The dawn of the "Free Market" changed the way that our financial system worked in such a way that "making money" became increasingly if not wholly detached from "making, owning or trading in things which have intrinsic worth"; at which point the rates of return expected by investors or financiers when they provided money to a business in order to grow or change course shot through the roof, as they expected returns which would match the returns that speculating (rather than investing in a true sense) on various newly de-regulated markets where there was no connection back to physical reality to act as some kind of limitation on short-run growth.

Suddenly after hundreds of years in a world where automation, equipment, factories etc were cheap compared to the costs of staffing and running them, in the UK and US where these new economic policies had been adopted first, and most vehemently, the opposite became true (and not because staff suddenly got cheaper).

So businesses struggled to attract the investment to grow without taking large risks predicated around an un-ending spiral of growth, and as a result were forced to take unnecessary risks all in the name of "Shareholder Value" (or "not being slowly crushed by the competition" for smaller firms)...

Roll on the early 90's and it becomes apparent that the short-run growth was in fact a speculative bubble, add in more disastrous economic policy linked to ideology rather than reality (thanks Mr Major!) and all those businesses which took on huge amounts of risk, are now faced with a recession.

So obviously the next government presses on with the same failed concepts, we have a warning shot from the bursting of the "Dot-Com Boom" bubble in 2000 which gets ignored, and we're round to 2008, when another recession comes along to ensure that anyone who survived the first one is now really screwed...

At which point obviously, we doubled down on the failed economic policy Again...

 

[Vann]

Meanwhile I received an offer for a free pick up of a Wadkin 24” (the owner doesn't know if it's RM or FM). The seller bought it years ago from a navy base and kept it.
I was happy for a minute until I received the photos - to a layman like me the machine looks in pretty bad shape. What do you think? Does it seem like a hopeless case for restoration?

Firstly, I don't think that's a FM nor an RM, but the model before the RM. That's not a bad thing, but it was designed to be flat-belt driven (think line-shaft).

Secondly, the looks may put you off, but that machine will (almost certainly) be able to be returned to good order. It'll just take more work. The rust is likely to be surface rust, and even if some is deeper it shouldn't effect the performance of the finished machine.

Your biggest worries are: 1) steel shafts that may be too heavily corroded to reuse and therefore need substantial work/replacement. 2) damage that is not obvious - this can be present in any second-hand machine, but the older the machine the more likely someone has damaged something over the years.

And a final thought: wallace would be into that machine in a flash and it would come out the other end shiney...

Cheers, Vann.

 

[TheTiddles]

An example using a machine that almost everyone knows, the Wadkin Bursgreen AGS 10" sawbench :
In 1964 the 3ph version was £115. Adjusted for inflation with the calculator here gives the equivalent in 2019 as £2348

The Sedgwick LK sawbench (3ph.) was £168 in 1969 (£2786 adjusted for inflation). So, Sedgwick are doing pretty well.......
One thing that's really surprising is that to get the LK with a single phase motor was £22 extra. That's £365 pounds more to have a single phase motor!

thanks for that, I think there’s a second factor that’s in play too, in that although there’s been inflation the cost of certain goods has changed too. From old copies of woodworking magazines in the 80’s power tools like routers were the same kind of price they were 20 years later, meaning they’d gotten dramatically cheaper, so the circa 3k value back then was rather more than it appears today, which would explain why they were so nicely made, a saw of that price today would be too, if you could find anyone to pay that much

Aidan

 

[RobinBHM]

It's such a shame Wadkin closed down. It was also relatively recently.

Maybe they could've focused on high end sales like Martin or Panhans - top end spindle moulders with CNC control, digital read outs etc etc.

 

[RobinBHM]

In the USA, Northfield are still producing stuff like old Wadkin and the likes.
I cannot download the PDF reader for their 2020 price list.
Have a look for yourself...
http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist.htmOr have a look around with Matt and Dema

Thanks for posting that - fascinating, esp seeing the traditional quality.

Their factory looks inefficient sadly, it needs the efforts of a lean construction consultant

 

[Trevanion]

The Sedgwick LK sawbench (3ph.) was £168 in 1969 (£2786 adjusted for inflation). So, Sedgwick are doing pretty well.......
One thing that's really surprising is that to get the LK with a single phase motor was £22 extra. That's £365 pounds more to have a single phase motor!

They, of course, don't make the LK anymore but they were the most bog-standard of bog-standard machines, a cast iron top, a 400mm blade, a motor, and a fence and that was yer lot unless you opted for the sliding table.

You can pick up a new Sedgwick TA315 saw with a sliding table and tilting blade function for £2700 (£3250 inc VAT) which are still built very well if not just as well as the original machines, so they're not far off the prices they were 50 years ago, although the single phase motor option is a little cheaper now at only £100 more