Wadkin Bursgreen Trenching Heads Question

[KT_NorCal]

Hi There,
Looking to eventually get these guys back in action. Both very nice overall condition. Knives need some attention and I plan to fully refurbish/restore, balance and sharpen them before putting them back to work. One came with a few spacers for varying width, but I will likely make more as I do believe the heads are set up for a minimum width measurement in metric. Confusingly the spacers that came with one of the heads are measured exactly in imperial 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16th, so maybe I'm wrong about the heads having an initial metric width. Both are a 1" bore which is perfect for my radial arm saw so I won't need to bush them at all.

Key thing is these will need to be pinned when in use, but the pin was MIA on both of them of course. A person I know with an extensive knowledge of this old WB stuff told me the pin was a threaded contraption that could be varied with the width of the head depending on what spacers are used. This makes sense of course, so I was wondering if any folks on here who have used these (or have them) could confirm and/or share a picture of it. I will obviously need to machine something for them. Plan B, but much less appealing is to just pin them with a bespoke length bronze rod every time they are changed, but that seems like it would get old quickly.

Also, if anyone had a copy of a "manual" for these things and wouldn't mind sharing a scan of it I would appreciate it. They seem pretty self explanatory, but having the original set-up instructions would always be a good thing to read.

Thank you!
KT

 

[deema]

I used to have a set, and used them a couple of times before selling them as I preferred to use a spindle moulder groover with reducers. I don’t believe there is a manual for them, just a passing comment in the Wadkin BRA manual

 

[KT_NorCal]

Interesting. I'll have to determine which version these are. Didn't realize they were set up for different depth of cuts as well as widths so will have to check that out.

I would have thought Wadkin/Wadkin Bursgreen produced some sort of set-up manual or sheet for these at some point given they were clearly targeted for "production" shops. I'll have to keep searching.

I do eventually want to get a modern adjustable groover at some point. The ones about 10 inches in diameter are pretty spendy though.

 

[JobandKnock]

When you bought stuff like this in the past the rep would sell it to you, and often deliver it as well as show the wood machinist (who like as not would be C&G qualified) how to use it. Wadkin (and other manufacturers) also used to run their own training schools to teach wood machinists about efficient and safe operation. Never went to Wadkin, but I did go to Robinson's in Rochdale a number of times. Not being a DIY product, and dealing with trained wood machinists often meant the manufacturer didn't need to produce an "idiots guide" - the rep would answer any queries. This is no different to some spindle moulder tooling today

 

[ScottandSargeant]

I will see if we have anything in our old files for you…. Watch out for kick-backs with them too.

 

[KT_NorCal]

When you bought stuff like this in the past the rep would sell it to you, and often deliver it as well as show the wood machinist....

Ah, that makes sense... "full service" is not something you see much these days so forget how that used to work in those days....

 

[KT_NorCal]

I will see if we have anything in our old files for you…. Watch out for kick-backs with them too.

Thank you for doing that.. It is very much appreciated. I'm sure I will be able to sort it out, but it's always nice to start with a cheat sheet so there is less trial and error. I've got a nice Delta 40B radial arm saw I'm restoring and will then get these guys refurbished to use on it. I'll document it all here in case others come along with similar questions.

These are definitely Wadkin Bursgreen era (the WB logo on one of them is a pretty good give away), (just double checked and the one with the logo on the knives says "Bursgreen" not Wadkin Bursgreen)... but I have to imagine the set up process was similar for these and the older Wadkin ones.

It would be especially interesting if you find any pictures of what the "pin" looked like originally. I have a potential design for one in my head, but I think I'll likely need two different ones to cover the total range of adjustment (for width that is).

Thanks again.

 

[deema]

This might be helpful
https://forum.canadianwoodworking.c...1-wadkin-tooling-a-look-at-the-trenching-head

 

[KT_NorCal]

This might be helpful

Hi there,
Thank you for the heads up. I had actually caught those when I started doing some online searching and watched the short series of them. That is one of the original Wadkin heads from the looks of it. Probably exactly the same or close to the circumference on both of these ones as well. It also has knives that are exactly the same as the second of these heads though, so in absence of anything else was just going to start by copying the process he went through. The first head with the "Bursgreen" logo on the knives (my statement in the message above isn't correct... just double checked and they say Bursgreen not Wadkin Bursgreen) is a bit different, but the principals should be the same...

Thanks again for the help,
Kevin

 

[JobandKnock]

Bursgreen became Sagar-Bursgreen (c.1949) who in turn became Wadkin-Bursgreen (c.1955). The "Bursgreen" trade mark was used from about 1947 onwards

We stopped using that type of head in the 1980s when chip limiter tooling became available. As others have have said, those heads can climb cut quite easily, especially when the knives are a bit blunt. Banned in Europe from 1994

 

[KT_NorCal]

Bursgreen became Sagar-Bursgreen (c.1949) who in turn became Wadkin-Bursgreen (c.1955). The "Bursgreen" trade mark was used from about 1947 onwards

We stopped using that type of head in the 1980s when chip limiter tooling became available. As others have have said, those heads can climb cut quite easily, especially when the knives are a bit blunt. Banned in Europe from 1994

Hmmm, unless they just put the Bursgreen logo on the knives for some random reason that would at least date that head from before 1955 based on what you say. Surprised, as I had assumed these were probably 60s or 70s era. The one with the Bursgreen logos on the knives is a different design that I hadn't really seen before (not that there is a lot of info on these out there) whereas the knife set-up on the second one is pretty much identical to the older Wadkin ones.

I respect all my tools and fully intend to set these up properly before using them (same with the radial arm saw)... why I'm on here asking questions first instead of asking what went wrong...
Speaking of using them, were these used on table saws often? I know some of the older Wadkin catalogs and whatnot showed them as an option for the table saws... Just not sure I would be comfortable not being able to see what it is doing, although in general principal it's probably safer that way.

 

[deema]

I’ve never come across anyone who used them on a saw, most saws either had a 5/8” or 1 1/4” spindle. It’s only the BRA that I’m aware of that had a 1” spindle. I would have expected to see trenching heads with the appropriate sized bore if they had been used. However, every days a school day.

 

[KT_NorCal]

I’ve never come across anyone who used them on a saw, most saws either had a 5/8” or 1 1/4” spindle. It’s only the BRA that I’m aware of that had a 1” spindle. I would have expected to see trenching heads with the appropriate sized bore if they had been used. However, every days a school day.

Ok, good to hear. It was in an old Wadkin catalog I saw it, so who knows how old... That said, that one in the video you linked to was 1.25", but it had a keyway which is most definitely not a table saw thing. Also that one had the look of a Bursgreen like the first one of mine so maybe a large Bursgreen Moulder???

Anyway, I have an AGS 10 also (and a BER2) and it most definitely has a 5/8" arbor. In fact it actually had a custom made carbide grooving/trenching blade on it when I bought it. It had been sitting since about 1984 and had been used for just one process in a business that used California Redwood for custom exterior (house) lighting... apparently very trendy stuff in the late sixties and seventies (Picture of custom trenching blade attached next to a regular sized blade).

My understanding was that all these heads that were in the 8"-9" size range were for the BRA radial arm saw. The big CC and CD required ones at least 10" or 11" to even clear the motor housing and get some depth of cut, so part of my assumption when I found these was that they were sized for a Radial arm saw like the one I have. Only big difference is that I think most of the BRAs came with extended arbors whereas the one I have maxes out at about 1 1/8th behind the nut/washer. Could probably get a bit more if I made up something like the Dado nut I have for the AGS, but I don't ever see myself needing that.

 

[Fitzroy]

That custom blade must weigh a ton, and take some serious motor current to spin up!

In the Wadkin manual for the AGS 10 shows an available moulding cutter block (QR200)

 

[Fitzroy]

I was interested and bumped into this video from Jack English, may be useful

 

[JobandKnock]

...most saws either had a 5/8” or 1 1/4” spindle. It’s only the BRA that I’m aware of that had a 1” spindle. I would have expected to see trenching heads with the appropriate sized bore if they had been used.

5/8in is American size and more a size you'd associate with portable power tools and very lightweight stuff, so it isn't normally seen on British industrial stuff (didn't it come into the UK with deWalt radial arm saws in the 1950s?)

The older BRAs I've seen have 1in arbors up to 16in later ones (and mk.2 ones) can be 30mm, but Wadkin often made different size arbors for different markets, e.g 35mm for France

I thought trenching heads for the BRA were the lightweight stacked dado saw type (175 to 250mm based on the BRA sizes of 12in/300mm [quite rare], 14in/350mm [most common] and 16in/400mm [less common] and using the accepted 60% safety rule for saw sizing. More often, though, you'd see a wobble saw in use on a radial arm saw, even thougj it gives a curved bottom trench

As others have said the heavy two part trenching heads were really designed for the CC, CD, etc type of heavy crosscut saw:

These were specifically designed for crosscutting, trenching and cross moulding (think "joggles" on sash window stiles which would be ganged and then shaped on this type of machine with a square cutter block and profile knives). They were the type of machine used with the OP's cutter blocks - sometimes the arbors on those machines had keyways in the arbors. I have in the past used these saws for trenching "back of house" trenched shelving for shop fits, but better quality work would never have shown the trench end - it always had to be a stopped housing which required a combination of machine and hand work (often including a hand router). The other oft forgotten thing about these cutterblocks is that the cutters need to be balanced, for which purpose we actually have machine knife scales to check the cutters were in balance

Some table saws were designed to work with heavy trenching heads. These were generally "variety" or "dimension" saws such as the Wadkin PK and PP

which came with a sliding segment of table to the left of the saw blade.

But by undoing a lock that segment could be drawn sideways (and relocked) to have clearance enough to accommodate the extra thickness of a trenching head. They could also be fitted with the sort of sliding carraige which many modern sliding panel saw users might recognise

In general there weren't many jobs where a trenching head was used on a table saw given that a spindle moulder with a cutter block was often an available option and that cross housings are faster, easier and safer to do on a cross cut saw. So use on a table saw at your own peril

I can tell you that modern 2-part (interlocking) replaceable carbide tipped tooling runs rings round the old stuff for cut quality, and safety

Sorry for the long post, but I was trying to illustrate the differences in use

 

[KT_NorCal]

That custom blade must weigh a ton, and take some serious motor current to spin up!

In the Wadkin manual for the AGS 10 shows an available moulding cutter block (QR200)

Yup, it ridiculously heavy and the amount of carbide in each tooth is shocking. It looks like it could be sharpened forever. When I saw that on the saw I decided I was definitely going to change the bearings no matter what....

Also, speaking of moulding heads, this came with my AGS as well... given what one of the zero clearance inserts looks like, they clearly occasionally used this as well. Looks similar to a Craftsman moulding head that was sold here in the 50s timeframe, but isn't. Apparently its product name wasn't "wheel of death," but something slightly more catchy.



Also, thank you for that link. I binge watched all four or five he produced and he does a good job setting that head up. The only thing he doesn't discuss is setting the depth of the "knickers/chippers" that clean up the edges. they are clearly not scraping the bar at the same point as the knives are so they must be set slightly more shallow. I'll have to email him and see what he ended up doing. He gets some very clean cuts after he went though the whole process of setting it up.

Thanks!
Kevin

 

[KT_NorCal]

5/8in is American size and more a size you'd associate with portable power tools and very lightweight stuff, so it isn't normally seen on British industrial stuff (didn't it come into the UK with deWalt radial arm saws in the 1950s?)

All I know is that the arbor nut on my old Delta Unisaw threaded perfectly onto the AGS arbor and I recently "accidentally" picked up a complete sliding table attachment (and all its bits) made by Delta in the 70s sometime and from my initial fooling around with it it looks like it will mount to the AGS with zero modifications.... makes me all a bit suspicious.

The older BRAs I've seen have 1in arbors up to 16in later ones (and mk.2 ones) can be 30mm, but Wadkin often made different size arbors for different markets, e.g 35mm for France

I thought trenching heads for the BRA were the lightweight stacked dado saw type (175 to 250mm based on the BRA sizes of 12in/300mm [quite rare], 14in/350mm [most common] and 16in/400mm [less common] and using the accepted 60% safety rule for saw sizing. More often, though, you'd see a wobble saw in use on a radial arm saw, even thougj it gives a curved bottom trench

As others have said the heavy two part trenching heads were really designed for the CC, CD, etc type of heavy crosscut saw:

My understanding was that these smaller heads do not even clear the motor housing of the big CC, CD, etc. and given the 1 inch bore I would have to assume they were only for the BRA. I think those bigger crosscut saws were 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 inch arbors or something like that, although am admittedly no expert....

The other oft forgotten thing about these cutterblocks is that the cutters need to be balanced, for which purpose we actually have machine knife scales to check the cutters were in balance

This was my assumption. Not only that the opposing cutters need to be balanced, but the Gunmetal heads themselves. I'll post better pictures once I start refurbishing them, but if you look at the one on the right it has a hole for the "pin" that matches up to a similar hole in the other head, but it also has a slightly smaller threaded hole to the upper right of the arbor which I'm unclear what it could be for... but was a bit worried about it throwing the head out of balance since there is no matching hole on the other part of the head... Anyhow, I will definitely be balancing these. I have a kitchen scale that might end up in the garage for balancing the knives once they are all sharpened...

I can tell you that modern 2-part (interlocking) replaceable carbide tipped tooling runs rings round the old stuff for cut quality, and safety

Sorry for the long post, but I was trying to illustrate the differences in use

I'm planning on getting one at some point.... I think they are much less common over here compared UK/EU, so it is hard to find any that would fit on my saw. I *think* OMAS(?) made one that fit the bill, but it was crazy expensive. I will pull the trigger at some point... probably when I can find the right one on the secondary market for the right price...

And no need to apologize, I appreciate all the info!

Thanks!
Kevin

 

[JobandKnock]

All I know is that the arbor nut on my old Delta Unisaw threaded perfectly onto the AGS arbor and I recently "accidentally" picked up a complete sliding table attachment (and all its bits) made by Delta in the 70s sometime and from my initial fooling around with it it looks like it will mount to the AGS with zero modifications.... makes me all a bit suspicious.

Presumably Wadkin-Bursgreen had a 5/8in arbor for the US market. Despite having used saws like the BGP (itself derived from the AGS) and the later "mk.2" AGS and AGSP, I can't for the life of me remember using small bore saw blades - all the ones I used took a 30mm bore saw blade, possibly because they were fitted with a collar or sleeve over the actual arbor, a bit like the way a lot of present day Makita mitre saws have a 5/8in arbor with a 30mm sleeve over it in Europe.

The ability to use a Delta sliding table is no surprise to me, either. According to a retired Bursgreen, Colne man I spoke to about 10 years ago some of the earlier Bursgreen lightweight designs were (modified) copies of existing American designs. He statef that the "mk.1" BRA was based on the earlier deWalt (USA) radial arm saw (made by Original Saw these days?) whilst the AGS was supposed to be based on a saw made by the American Saw Co., which I have never been able to track down. Odder still is that the very first AGS, the 14in model made in Sagar days, had a completely different style of body until about 1962 or a little later. The smaller 10 and 12in models looked similar to the Unisaw when first introduced

Edit: I just retrieved an old mid-1960s Parry's catalogue which states that the 10in AGS/BGS came with a 5/8in arbor, the 12in AGS/BGS/BGP with a 1in arbor, the 14in AGS with a 1-1/8 or 1-1/4in arbor.

The same catalogue gives the CC arbor size as 1-1/4in, whilst the 10in BRA has a 5/8in arbor. The 12in and 16in models are absent, but the 14in model is stated as being able to accommodate grooving heads up to 1-1/4in wide, but no arbor diameter us given

I might have some other catalogues somewhere, so I'll see if I can dig them out

 

[Vann]

...My understanding was that these smaller heads do not even clear the motor housing of the big CC, CD, etc. and given the 1 inch bore I would have to assume they were only for the BRA. I think those bigger crosscut saws were 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 inch arbors or something like that...

...The same catalogue gives the CC arbor size as 1-1/4in, whilst the 10in BRA has a 5/8in arbor. The 12in and 16in models are absent, but the 14in model is stated as being able to accommodate grooving heads up to 1-1/4in wide, but no arbor diameter us given...

The big Wadkin RAS such as CC and CD have 1 1/4" arbors. The smaller (14") Wadkin CK has a 1" arbor. I don't know what the BRA came with, but a friend in Melbourne runs a 1" bore trenching head on one of his (three!!!!) BRAs. I assumed the BRAs all had 1" arbors, but may well be wrong - although I suspect anything smaller may have been for the American market.

The Wadkin CC has an extended arbour to allow the use of trenching heads. It comes with a spacer 2 1/4" long - which I presume means it can take a trench head up to 2 1/4" wide (the CC has a 5hp motor).

The PK dimension saw shares some features with the CC (same blade size, same motor design, etc) but doesn't come with an extended arbor. An arbor extension could be bought for the PK - Jack English Machines has one (or borrowed one) and said it was quite scary having that big head spinning. Being in Canada, with 60hz electricity, I guess the head was spinning at 3600 rpm, rather than the more common 2800rpm of 50hz countries.

Cheers, Vann.