Wadkin AGS 10 Affairs and Spares

[OriginalMitsta]

Hello all..

I have just purchased a Wadkin AGS 10 table saw and am in need of some expert advice specifically around spare parts and powering it (as it's a three-phase model).

As this is for a garage workshop, I was looking originally at replacing the three phase motor with a single phase motor and starter. I understand that single phase motors are noisier than three phase and therefore decided to look into the purchase a converter instead. What do you think of the Clarke PC40 3.5HP converter available at Machine Mart for £322. I understand that these can be unreliable however my thought pattern was that this is a 3.5HP converter for a 2HP motor which should handle start-up currents etc.

Secondly, the right-hand extension for the table saw is missing and therefore I was looking to either make a table (out of wood) or purchase a cast iron one. For the latter, any ideas where I may be able to source one? I found one company (LNC Woodworking) which has a pair for sale, however I was just after the one. Any advice (wood vs. cast iron etc.)?

Many thanks for your time...

 

[MusicMan]

I run my three phase machines off invertors from Direct Drives. This includes a Wadkin AGS10 (also a lathe and miller), which needs the more expensive 415V supply. They have worked flawlessly for several years. Not often mentioned is the software facility, to program in a soft start and a <10s stop. I have no experience of the Clarke but you need to check that it will provide the voltage needed. Some are 240V only, which is OK if your motor can be re-linked to this voltage, but mine couldn't (as far as I found out!).

 

[OriginalMitsta]

Thanks MusicMan, I'll take a look. I've yet to work out whether the motor can be configured to run at 240v (I only received the saw on Thursday and am waiting until the weekend to unwrap it!)

 

[MusicMan]

When you unwrap it, post a pic of the motor plate on here (as well as other pics, of course, that is obligatory!). There are people here who know much more about it than I, who will be able to tell you your options.

 

[Hornbeam]

Plus 1 for the inverter route.
I had a single phase AGS dfor 15 years but when I upgrade to a full panel saw I bought 3 phase and an inverter.
Note that a single phase motor is generally slighly bigger than the equivalent 3 phase 1 so you need to chechk the motor frame size and power
As said if your motor allows you to change fron star to delta then you can use an inverter. I have an expensive ABB version and a cheaper chinese one which cost under £100. Using the inverter you can also programme in ramp up and down rates and it is very easy to fit additional start/stop buttons. Only problem with the Chinese one was the Engish translated manual.

 

[OriginalMitsta]

I've attached a pic of the motor plate...

Not convinced that I could re-configure this to run at a lower voltage (~220V).

I'm tempted to swap this motor out for a single phase 3HP motor and starter. Any thoughts on this?

 

[OriginalMitsta]

Oops - image didn't display properly. Link is: https://ibb.co/c1dDYJ

 

[OriginalMitsta]

When you unwrap it, post a pic of the motor plate on here (as well as other pics, of course, that is obligatory!). There are people here who know much more about it than I, who will be able to tell you your options.

Yep, will try and take some pics this weekend

 

[Farmer Giles]

I've attached a pic of the motor plate...



Not convinced that I could re-configure this to run at a lower voltage (~220V).

I'm tempted to swap this motor out for a single phase 3HP motor and starter. Any thoughts on this?

it doesn't look like a dual voltage motor from the plate. If so and it is hardwired for star and 415v then you have (at least!) 3 options.

First is swap it out for either a dual voltage 3 phase so you can use a cheaper 240v VFD or a single phase motor.

Secondly, use a 240 to 415v converter, either the transwave rotary type or a digital converter as per Direct Drives. I use the latter on a 7.5hp lathe motor

Thirdly, open up the motor, find the star point, break into it and wire both ends of each of the 3 windings to outside the motor so you can wire it as delta and use a 240v VFD

My preference would be the 415 converter, I like the digital because they are quieter and take up less room, but the rotary can be cheaper and available second hand. Either way you can use them on different machines if you acquire more old machinery, I use mine on an old hydrovane compressor, a big pillar drill, a big Colchester metal lathe and soon a big wadkin bandsaw. Only one at a time I hasten to add. I use VFDs too but only on smaller machines where variable speed is a nice to have like the wood lathe.

Cheers
Andy

 

[OriginalMitsta]

Thanks Andy

This will probably be the only 415V item I'll have in my (tiny) workshop.. Everything else will be 240V

Looking at pricing:

A 240V digital inverter will cost ~£330 and the motor a further £150 (total of £500 including delivery)
A 3HP digital inverter with voltage conversion = ~£600
A 3HP single phase TEK motor with starter = ~£150 for motor + £45 for starter (total = £200)

I guess I have some thinking to do!! The 415V digital converter seems overkill as it'll only be used for one piece of machinery. The other two options have potential. I like the idea of a slow-start and brake...

 

[Farmer Giles]

The other thing to take into account is inrush current. On start up the motor will take more current, especially if it is engaged in pushing around machinery. My lathe is 7.5hp and I have a 10hp converter, but the lathe is in neutral on start up so no load. I have soft start enabled on the converter which helps reduce inrush current. So for a 3hp motor you may need a bigger converter but I wouldn't have thought spinning up the saw blade would take much.

The guy from Direct Drives had the same lathe as me so could advise from experience but they do supply whole workshop systems so can probably advise on old Wadkins too

The screw compressor I have is smart, it waits until the motor gets up to speed before closing valves so the motor is not starting on full load. I believe it's a 5hp motor from memory.

You may be able to get a local motor rewiring firm to convert the motor to delta for you so you can use a cheaper 240v VFD. I did one old brook motor myself, not too difficult once you have found the star point.

 

[OriginalMitsta]

Thanks Andy, so I've found a couple of companies that deal with motor rewinding. I'll give them a call to see what they can do about re-wiring it.

This is a 4HP (3KW) motor but I can't seem to find any documentation on it which tells me what the start-up current is. I'll give Direct Drives a call as they don't seem to have a 4HP digital converter on their ebay shop.

 

[Farmer Giles]

Typically only the full load current is stated as the in rush current may vary depending on load on start up. At least that's my understanding, that is why different types of MCB exist that can handle different peak currents for the same rated current. From memory I have a 50 amp C type MCB on the converter whereas B types are usual for most ring mains.

 

[OriginalMitsta]

Interesting - so for my garage, I will actually have a 'ring mains' which will be hooked up to a 32A MCB. I'm hoping that if I get a VFD with soft-start, the start-current will be significantly less than that (~10 - 15A?). The motor plate specifies a full-load current of 5.8A (although I understand it's impossible to determine start-current from that).

 

[ola c]

I had the same problem, missing one extension table. I Think they are symmetric (?) and decided it was better to have the original extension table on the right side. Anyway, I made my own to have on the left side, it's mdf same thickness as rest of the saw top covered with 1mm metal sheet. Looks good but of course not as stable as original. I have had this solution for about 2 years and it still stays level.

In this thread you can see my saw and if you scroll down you see how I attached the extension, it's in Swedish but pictures are the same in all languages . It would be preferred to have angle brackets resting on the cabinet base as support and that was my back-up if only screws would not be stable enough. https://www.byggahus.se/forum/threads/a ... ad.268293/

With that said, if you find two tables I'm very interested to buy one of them, unfortunately shipping to sweden (where I live) will most likely cost a fortune.

 

[Farmer Giles]

Interesting - so for my garage, I will actually have a 'ring mains' which will be hooked up to a 32A MCB. I'm hoping that if I get a VFD with soft-start, the start-current will be significantly less than that (~10 - 15A?). The motor plate specifies a full-load current of 5.8A (although I understand it's impossible to determine start-current from that).

You should be fine, worst case if the MCB keeps tripping is to change the probably B type 32A MCB on your ring main to a 32A C type.

 

[OriginalMitsta]

That's beautifully done! Looks very much like the original and you say you used MDF?

As promised, I've attached some pictures of my recent purchase:

Needs a lot of work to bring it up to spec (hammer)

 

[ola c]

Yes, 2 layers of 19mm (3/4") mdf glued together and template routed. Then the top was covered with metal sheet, edges painted same colour as rest of the saw. Did you scroll down to this pic? https://www.byggahus.se/forum/attachmen ... pg.170455/

If you look underneath the extension you have and see how it's attached to the main table you will understand from which angle my pic is taken.

Good luck with your saw!

 

[OriginalMitsta]

Yes, I did see that - expertly done. How did you attach the sheet metal to the MDF? I presume it wan't mechanical and you used some sort of adhesive (Contact adhesive / Gorilla Glue?). Just thinking that if I can't get hold of a replacement extension in cast iron, I'll also be going down this route...

 

[ola c]

I attached the sheetmetal with double side adehesive covering the entire surface. Won't come loose in my lifetime :?