Wadkin 10 AGS "Restoration"

[Martin_H]

Hi guys

I'm Martin from Belgium, long time reader, first time poster. I'm looking for some help with the restauration of a Wadkin Bursgreen 10 AGS. I read the posts of @Michal & @ManowarDave with great interest, and will continu to scan the forum for extra advice about these saws, but here goes for my own project:

This was the saw a couple of years ago in working condition, i bought it for 400 euro. It has a 3 phase 380 volts motor. I has a rise and fall system for the riving knife (edit)

I stripped it partly because i put it away in storage some years and now I finally have the time to put it back together.

I wanted to strip it completely and paint it, but my dad adviced to put it together first, believing it should work rather than look good.

so first major issue I ran into is the saw arbor. Looks like the threads have been butchered:

I can't put on the locking nut without excessive force with a wrench, so it doesn't feel good.
I think that the guy who sold it, put on the sawblade, then the flange & then 2 washers to overcome the bad threads in the middle, so the locking nut could be thightend.


So my question is:

1) is this imperial thread ? (saw beeing from 1963 i guess it is?)
2) can I restore it, i don't have acces to a metal lathe yet, though I am in contact with a local machinist who wants to take a look at it.

Worst case the machinist has to make a totally new arbor. For the dimensions I need to remove the arbor from the "holder".
But the nut holding the pulley is rusted solid. I put it in WD40 since sunday (going to check on it tonight or tomorrow night) hoping i can get it moving again.

3) Maybe put in some new bearings while I am at it ? Any one knows of a European Union supplier ?

Thanks in advance
Martin

 

[Martin_H]

So yesterday I took apart the racked quadrant for the rise and fall mechanism:

just 2 theeth have some damage, but the system seems to work without any slack at the moment (but it doens't have the motor mounted so maybe it can pose some problems.

I was thinking to restore it with fluid metal, it's an epoxy glue with metal parts in it...anybody tried this before. Otherwise welding/Brazing it, but maybe its not even worth the trouble. I do have to clean it up thats for sure.

as for the bolts that hold op the quadrant:

they are pretty worn,

I read up on the 2 Wadkin manuals (old & new). Seems to me that I have an old style fence but a "new" style riving knife...so that leaves me wondering about the bolts & treads as the old saw shows imperial and the new one, shows metric.

I think I have to pick up a imperial threadgauge somewhere and try to figure out what is what.

Could it be that this is a "continental" edition (from '63 but with the new riving knife & metric bolts ? ) as @Krysstel wondered in his thread aboutis WBAGS10?

Kind regards,
Martin

 

[Krysstel]

Hi Martin

If your saw was initially sold in Belgium as an import I would think it's very likely the same "European export" spec as mine. I believe the giveaways are the metric threads, the later style riving knife, and the dual voltage motor.

Regarding your damaged arbor threads. It's difficult to gauge the size from the pictures but on my saw I have a 25mm arbor - that's 25 metric millimeters, not 1 inch (25.4mm) . Perhaps yours is the same ? If so that may make recutting the threads an easier job than if it's some ancient imperial thread - I believe they also made 5/8" and 1".

The damaged rise and fall quadrant is a common problem apparently and mine is much worse than yours. Replacements are available but at an enormous cost. It's the one thing I havn't fixed on my saw and I just live with the backlash. I did however replace the worm drive and that helped a good bit.

Mark

 

[Martin_H]

Hi Martin

If your saw was initially sold in Belgium as an import I would think it's very likely the same "European export" spec as mine. I believe the giveaways are the metric threads, the later style riving knife, and the dual voltage motor.

Regarding your damaged arbor threads. It's difficult to gauge the size from the pictures but on my saw I have a 25mm arbor - that's 25 metric millimeters, not 1 inch (25.4mm) . Perhaps yours is the same ? If so that may make recutting the threads an easier job than if it's some ancient imperial thread - I believe they also made 5/8" and 1".

The damaged rise and fall quadrant is a common problem apparently and mine is much worse than yours. Replacements are available but at an enormous cost. It's the one thing I havn't fixed on my saw and I just live with the backlash. I did however replace the worm drive and that helped a good bit.

Mark

Hi Mark, thanks a lot for the info...I believe you are right about the "European export" specs thing; I will measure the arbor later this week (Saw is at my newly bought house a couple of miles away).

Did you have trouble to get the nut of the arbor at the pulley side ? mine is litteraly rusted shut, maybe some heat can help?
As for restoring the quadrant; any idea a expoxy glue mixed with metal particles could do the trick ? No idea what kind of forces are applied when rising &lowering the saw ?

Kind regards,
Martin

 

[Fitzroy]

I’d clean it up, and reinstall it with the worm screw and see if the worm gear contacts the broken area, if not I’d leave it alone.

 

[clogs]

Martin_H
Nice saw.......as for the arbour thread all u need is a thread file....a quick rub will reinstate the thread to a useable condition.....
make sure the nut thread is not all chewed up.....new ones are available.......
I would NOT take the saw apart just for that......
thread files are not so cheap anymore but still available....very old school now........
as for those Whitworth bolts.....up to 3/8diameter you can used UNC, after that the thread pitch changes to much....
Availability or Whitworth and UNC or UNF bolts are easily available in France/ Belg...just find the nearest tractor /parts repair workshop.....they are used a lot on old Brit tractors.......
I lived in The Charente (how ever its spelt) and had no problems getting these kinda nuts and bolts or Studding at all..........
good luck....

 

[Cabinetman]

I have never worked on one of these so this is just a pure guess, the nut you can’t undo, it’s not a left-hand thread is it by any chance? Ian

 

[deema]

The spindle nut for the saw blade will have an acme thread, so what ever you do, don’t think it’s a standard whitworth thread! Ideally it needs a thread chaser to restore the thread. Alternatively single point thread it with a suitably ground cutter, but either way your looking for a metal lathe.

The rear nut which is frozen on is a RHT, so you will be turning it the correct way to remove. What ever you do, DO NOT grip the casting around the collar on the casting that the riving knife attaches to. If you do you will bend it or worse break it. If bent it’s a lot of work to get it working again / apart. The last badly corroded nut I ended up having to cut off. It’s a really odd American thread pitch, not a nut that you can buy (or at least I scoured everywhere including the USA) and you have to make it. (Or retread the shaft to a more standard thread). So, heat it up, very hot, let it cool and heat it up again and see if it moves, if it does, rock the nut backwards and forwards allowing the rust / crud to find its way out. Lots of patience. If not try soaking in paraffin over night or another penetrating fluid. Finally if that doesn’t work try electrolysis to remove rust. If none of the above work, it’s nut splitter time!

 

[deema]

The quadrant rack should be fine, the teeth of the worm should engage in the centre of the rack, so a chip on the outside isn’t normally an issue.

 

[J-G]

...The spindle nut for the saw blade will have an acme thread...

Pardon? What would make you think that ?

ACME threads are used to transmit power, I've never seen an instance of an Acme thread being used as a 'fixing'. Looking at the third photo in the original post, that thread, although damaged, is certainly not a 29º thread form (Acme).

 

[Vann]

The spindle nut for the saw blade will have an acme thread, so what ever you do, don’t think it’s a standard whitworth thread...

I'm not familiar with the Wadkin-Bursgreen AGS. My Wadkin saws are older (1936 + 1945), but neither have acme threads. So I agree with J-G, acme threads are unlikely. It's most likely Whitworth profile, but not necessarily a standard BSW/BSF thread count.

Cheers, Vann.

 

[AndrewS]

I would be inclined to replace the two bolts to ensure you can achieve the desired torque without risking damage to the corresponding female threads.

As others have said, the chipped gear teeth will be fine, just carefully dress off any high spots with a needle file.

Good luck!

 

[deema]

Ha, ha, nothing like a provoking a response. Well, it could be square thread, or an Acme thread, or some other squarish thread, but it’s definately not WW, UNS or anything else with pointy tops. I’ve restored a lot of AGS saws and every one, that’s both AGS12, 10 have a square or acme type thread, at least that’s what it looks like to me! I’ve not measured it, but I have cleaned one or two up. I attached a few photos of previous machines, they are both AGS 12 and 10. I have just checked a couple of machines I have the in the workshop awaiting restoration and again both have the same thread. I’d be interested in knowing what the form is. Every day a school day

 

[Martin_H]

Hi guys thanks a lot for all the provided information.

@Fitzroy & @AndrewS I will leave the gear alone, and focus on cleaning it together with the wormgear. thanks for the tip about the filing of the high spots, will look into it.

@clogs , @deema,@J-G, @Vann; interesting, I will do some more reasearch & measurement about wether or not this is an ACME thread. Think I have to take it to a workshop to see if they can measure it.
For undoing of the pully nut I clamped the arbour on the round 'Front saw flange' (see photo) which has to holes to block the spindle when changing blades. Put it in a benchvise, so I think (hope) I have not twisted the riving knife attachment casting

If it doesn't come off with the WD40, I'm trying a rustremover, after that the blowtorch

 

[deema]

I usually grip the cast flange and insert a correctly sized piece if round steel into the hole that’s used to stop the spindle rotating when taking off the blade. Gripping where you indicated can distort the flange and cause the saw blade to run out of true. I usually skim these faces when I restore a saw as any dings in the outer face translate to the clamping surface.

 

[deema]

Pardon? What would make you think that ?

ACME threads are used to transmit power, I've never seen an instance of an Acme thread being used as a 'fixing'. Looking at the third photo in the original post, that thread, although damaged, is certainly not a 29º thread form (Acme).

Looking at the photo you’ve highlighted I can see what you mean. However, I have seen this before, just once. It was created by the guy running a die down the thread thinking it was a WW. I think this has had the same treatment. My best guess is that when he looks at the nut, he will see a square thread. When the spindle has been attacked with a die, it will still take the nut.

 

[Martin_H]

I will post a picture of the nut tomorrow, for it is indeed a peculiar one (doesn't look like this in both the old/new manuals).

I usually grip the cast flange and insert a correctly sized piece if round steel into the hole that’s used to stop the spindle rotating when taking off the blade. Gripping where you indicated can distort the flange and cause the saw blade to run out of true. I usually skim these faces when I restore a saw as any dings in the outer face translate to the clamping surface.

@deema; you speak of gripping the cast flange, and then inserting a piece of steel in the hole to keep the spindle from rotating ? Is this to get the pully off? or are you talking about normal saw changes during work ?

allso can you explain what you mean with "skim" these faces ? and "Any dings in the outer face translate to the clamping surface", do you mean if I put pressure with a vice on the flange, I will distored it leading to the saw nog beeing flat on the flange when I thighten the nut ?
I must admit I did not know it could be "dented", because it looks quite heavy and denseOwh dear, hope I havven't destroyed it allready :-(

Anyway the flange does look rough especially around the holes for "locking" the sawarbor...maybe better if I find a lathe to true it up. Does it come loose from the arbour ?

Final question for the day; would putting the blowtorch on the Nut holding the pully not be extremely dangerous for the pully itself ? Getting the nut red hot must shurrely affect the rest of the metal parts no ?

Thanks a lot in advance.


Martin

UPDATE: just saw this post about the spindle of an AGS 12, so most questions have been answered....https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/wadkin-ags-spindle.128715/#post-1448442

 

[deema]

I’m talking about getting the pulley nut off. If you grip the outer edge of the saw spindle flange it’s almost inevitable the metal will bruise due to the high pressure you have to apply to keep it from rotating. The bruise will cause a lump where the saw blade sits. The blade will not then run true.
I skim the faces by placing the spindle in a metal work lathe and cutting a very fine amount off to true everything up. Over the years inevitably the edge of the fiange gets bruised and it ensures the blade will run true.

 

[J-G]

Looking at the photo you’ve highlighted I can see what you mean. However, I have seen this before, just once. It was created by the guy running a die down the thread thinking it was a WW. I think this has had the same treatment. My best guess is that when he looks at the nut, he will see a square thread. When the spindle has been attacked with a die, it will still take the nut.

The first two pictures you posted (reply #13) do show the thread in a much more original state and I now suggest that it is probably a 'Stub Acme' form. Again I haven't seen even this form used as a 'fixing' but the nature of the application would certainly benefit from such.

'Stub' Acme is quite valid - still 29º flank angle but half depth - well some 'standards' specify ½ depth others a little more (or less!). I've just gone back to my 1924 6th edition of Machinery's Handbook and even that does not list a 'standard' for Stub Acme but in the 70's I was in charge of the Export Threading dept. at Herbert Small Tools - Part of Alfred Herbert - and I well remember an order for 'Stub Acme form Holozone Coventry Dies' from a company in South America (somewhere) which had been lost at sea and had to be re-made and it took quite some time to get replacement drawings, the originals of which had been lost/destroyed when HST took over the BSA plant that had received the first order. None of the 'Stub' forms were the same ratio - ie. they were all 'specials'.

I didn't expect to find it but in the 26th edition of Machinery's Handbook there are sections on both Full and Stub Acme form - ASME/ANSI B1.8-1988.

There is also a 10º modified square thread form which could also be a contender. To determine that I would need to see a photo of the spindle taken very precisely at the lead angle of the thread.

 

[deema]

Thanks Atherstone, I’ve been looking in some of the manuals, all apart from the Wadkin BGS12 don’t specify the thread on the saw locking nut. However the BGS 12 does! it’s the same innards I believe as the AGS12, Anyway, it says it has a 1” acme. I think however your suggesting of a stub acme sounds spot on.