Victor Socket Chisels or Kirschen 1101 Bevel Edge Chisels?

[Nads]

I am about to start a HND in Furniture Studies at Uni in September and have just been given my final tool list, but as I have been doing woodwork for about a year now I already have most of the stuff on the list, if not better stuff, thanks to the great advise from this forum. However one think I haven’t really purchased was a good set of chisels, at the moment I’m just using a cheap set of Stanley’s. This is mainly because I couldn't really decide which ones to get, I’ve already got some Sorby mortice chisels which I really happy with, but a lot of you guys don’t really seem to rate there bevel edge chisels :? . The tool list gives us 2 options the ‘Kirschen 1101 set @£60’ which our tutor says are good or the ‘Victor Bevel Edge Socket Chisel Set @ £150’, which our tutor describes as the ‘Rolls Royce’ of chisel sets :? . Since I already have most of the stuff on the list I can afford either set (thanks to my August work bonus ) but was just wondering if I could have people’s thoughts on my options. Since I one day want this to be my career, I have been buying the best tools I can afford, but £150 for Axminster’s Victor Chisels seems a bit steep, I don’t mind spending the money if I thought they were worth it? Does anyone own a set or know much about them?

Thanks Guys :wink:

Nads
:wink:

 

[Alf]

The tool list gives us 2 options the ‘Kirschen 1101 set @£60’ which our tutor says are good

Lots of other folks do too. I'd suggest going to Dieter Schmid and getting the unpolished ones to cut down the back flattening horror a bit, rather than the polished from Axminster.

or the ‘Victor Bevel Edge Socket Chisel Set @ £150’

Gosh, really? We had some damning discussion about the pictures of them when they came out I remember, but I don't know if anyone's tried them or seen them. To be honest, for that money, I think I'd be thinking I might as well get the LNs with the harder-wearing hornbeam handles and (going by the original pictures of the Victors anyway) much finer beveled edges.

Well actually I'd be saying "I don't want A2 at all", but that's another discussion.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Nads]

Yeah Alf I was very surprised to see the victor chisels on the list too? I read the discussions on the forum about victor range too, and agreed that £150 seemed steep, I was just wondering if anyone know any more!? :?

I must omit going on appearances alone I don’t really like the look of the Kirscen set but then appearance isn’t everything. What might be my other options? Ashly Iles chisels seem to get very mixed reviews, I’m not sure I want to take the chance with them. And although I like my Sorby mortice chisels they have had mixed reviews too? And although I really like the look of the LN chisels, and I’m sure they are great I not sure I really ready for a set of 200 pound chisels? Why haven’t Vertias made any yet, I seem to be always pleased with thier products?! :wink:


Anyone got any views?! I'm a bit confused :?

 

[Alf]

I must omit going on appearances alone I don’t really like the look of the Kirscen set but then appearance isn’t everything.

Well to be honest neither do I. I'd be tempted to ditch the handles right away and make some nice ones without those tacky steel hoops (rather too "Made in China" for my taste). Too bad they don't seem to be available handleless as well as unpolished.

What might be my other options? Ashly Iles chisels seem to get very mixed reviews, I’m not sure I want to take the chance with them.

Yeah, reading the 'Murrican fora they're a "no brainer", but rather a different story over here it seems. Bit like Sorby really - do you feel lucky?

How d'you feel about Japanese? If you like them, they're probably the best bet for economy and quality. Alternatively there's the option to turn your back on new and look for old ones, especially if you don't mind not having a "set" per se Mind you in all likelihood there'd be a certain amount of work involved getting them fettled up, but that seems to be the case with a lot of new ones too and at least this way there's a good chance you'll get some decent steel. Assuming no-one's drawn the temper - always a risk with the old ones.

Having said which a quick goof about the usual suspects reveal chisels have got expensive since I last looked. :shock: Which is odd, 'cos I couldn't shift mine when I tried.

Cheers, Alf

 

[ike]

Hi Nads,

Maybe worth a look at Ashley Isles chisels? There's been some discussion here on past quality issues (mine included), which may have been transient anyway. I have a set of 10 that cost me £117 from the factory. Hold their edge well and nice handles to boot. The finish* is not to everyones idea of perfection but they don't need much flattening and do the business intended.

Alfs' point about buying old noted but id you did prefer to go new, *they are truly 'hand' made by highly skilled British craftsman. :wink:

cheers,

Ike

 

[David C]

If buying the horrible handled chisels be sure to get the unpolished set.

Good Japanese chisels, are going to cost about £30 each and upwards. Beware cheap ones!

The Victor set have short blades which I find much more difficult to prepare, and you have a lifetime of use ahead of you!.

If spending money I would get L-N, which have the advantage of the change to long handle option. Also not as brittle as Japanese.

Ashley Iles are one of the only other chisel sets with delicate edges. plain handles infinitely preferable to the blister raising octagonal pattern. This is more or less quoted from the great Jim Kingshott.

David,

 

[Philly]

Nads
I've had a look at the Victor chisels. Disappointing. For that much money you want a GOOD chisel and thought they were a bit clunky. Bevels were very coarse, to.
As Mr. C says, the L-N chisels are very nice. Just buy the sizes you need and they work out a lot less than £200-especially if you don't buy the leather roll.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[paulm]

Alf,

If you have some spare secondhand chisels available :shock: :lol: might be worth putting a list and prices up on the forum again ?

Might even be interested myself, but no promises !

Cheers, Paul.

 

[Alf]

Oh dear, I'm going to query the cannon-firing, surfer dude again - it's such a bad habit I have.

Good Japanese chisels, are going to cost about £30 each and upwards. Beware cheap ones!

Is that the basic Oire Nome type, Mr C? 'Cos I always thought the big benefit of the Japanese chisels was the cheaper ones were so much better than the equivalently priced Western ones? Putting it another way, what advantage does £30 give over £15? The cheap ones seemed pretty good to me, during my brief flirtation with them.

If spending money I would get L-N, which have the advantage of the change to long handle option.

I still don't get that, ya know. I mean how can a chisel that needs about a 30°+ bevel as the minimum be worth setting up as a parer? Oh well, different strokes...

plain handles infinitely preferable to the blister raising octagonal pattern. This is more or less quoted from the great Jim Kingshott.

Now Jim Kingshott had many laudable features, but not being dogmatic didn't seem to be one of them... :lol: Am I to read this as he found them blister inducing and you've just taken his word for it? 'Cos I'd have thought a tool fettler par excellence such as yourself would have found the easy answer to that. viz: Sandpaper. I used to think the same thing (probably down on record somewhere saying so), until I actually tried a good one and the scales fell from my eyes. Perhaps I should have wondered to myself earlier if the design's no good why was it the most expensive option in days of yore, put on the best chisels and gouges, and still surviving today?

Chisel, well as it happens I'm kind of in mid fettle of them - as no-one seemed to see their potential I decided I'd have to reveal it first and put up the price accordingly. :wink: The danger is I'll then not want to part with them at all, but we'll see. Mind you, I was fully intending to rehandle with Best London Pattern Octagonal handles, but I might need to do a bit of convincing of folks about the wisdom of that now... :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

The tool list gives us 2 options the ‘Kirschen 1101 set @£60’ which our tutor says are good

Lots of other folks do too. I'd suggest going to Dieter Schmid and getting the unpolished ones to cut down the back flattening horror a bit, rather than the polished from Axminster.

Seconded.

http://www.fine-tools.com/stemmb.htm

82.50 euros plus 9 shipping , 91.5 euros = 65 quid. About the same as APTC (who don't do the unpolished AFAIK)

BugBear

 

[Adam]

I've got the "polished" two cherries set and like them. They seem to stay very sharp, and despite the edges being slightly rounded when they buff a finish onto them, its never actually limited my woodworking. Without doubt, my skill is still behind the small radius you see, especially it you hold the chisel at a slight angle.

I can agree on the handles though, they really aren't anything special. I've taken some lovely fine end grain shavings with them.

Adam

 

[woodbloke]

F&C did a very comprehensive test of 70 different chisel (Issue 79) and graded them from * very poor, thru' to ***** top notch. The Kirschen 'Two Cherries' was best on test (5*), Ray Isles socket chisels (Old Tool Store) also 5*, Ashley Isles 41/2*, Sorby 4* as well as Phiel 4*, best all rounders with plastic handles :shock: were the Bahco set (orange handle) 4*. As the man said..... 'you pays your money and you takes your choice'...I think - Rob

 

[Mirboo]

Hi Nads,

I can't comment on the Victor or the Kirschen chisels but I do have a set of Lie-Nielsen chisels which I like a lot. As Philly suggested, if you don't want to spend the money for an entire set straight away you could build up a set a few at a time.

Well actually I'd be saying "I don't want A2 at all", but that's another discussion.

Alf,

Can I ask what it is that turns you off A2? I know you've said "that's another discussion" but here is as good a place as any....., isn't it? I have read elsewhere that A2 can be susceptible to chipping, although I haven't experienced this myself. Is that the problem? :-k


Adam,

I like the tractor in your avatar. Is it the diesel Fergie 35? The tractor I first learnt to drive when I was a kid was a red diesel Massey Ferguson 35 that looked just like the one in your avatar. It looks like yours in in better nick than the one we had on our farm though.

 

[Adam]

Adam, I like the tractor in your avatar. Is it the diesel Fergie 35? The tractor I first learnt to drive when I was a kid was a red diesel Massey Ferguson 35 that looked just like the one in your avatar. It looks like yours in in better nick than the one we had on our farm though.

Sorry, dive in without disturbing the topic. But its about to go elsewhere to the merits of A2 shortly so.... heres a better picture.... https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... 3&start=30

See above, yes, its a 35. Recently restored. Adam

 

[Alf]

Can I ask what it is that turns you off A2? I know you've said "that's another discussion" but here is as good a place as any....., isn't it? I have read elsewhere that A2 can be susceptible to chipping, although I haven't experienced this myself. Is that the problem? :-k

Well Ian, it's a number of reasons really. Generally I just find my use doesn't justify the long term edge holding of A2 and I'd sooner have something I can sharpen quicker, albeit more often. The quicker the edge is to fettle, the less time I have to screw it up :wink: Also I like using oil stones and A2 and oil stones really aren't a particularly happy combination. Specifically with regard to chisels, the A2 simply doesn't hold up at all below a bevel of about 30+°. (I've got some more accurate observations on it somewhere, but not handy just now) Anyway that's not such an issue for chopping, but for paring I like the lowest bevel angle I can get away with - the lower the angle, the less force I need, the more controlled the cut. A2 limits my options in that regard right away and that's just plain annoying. I suppose my main feeling is that, at the price, the LNs should be a more all round chisel than I think the A2 makes them. To me they're just a chopping chisel, so far pretty much exclusively used for dovetailing. Not to say there isn't a place for A2 chisels; if I was using exotics all the time, or some of that cast iron you Aussies call wood :wink: then I think it makes a ton more sense. But for me, and I'd hazard a guess the majority of buyers, rather less exotic O1 would be a bit more versatile.

Hmm, ran off with the ball a bit there, didn't I? Sorry 'bout that. :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Mirboo]

Woodbloke's post above reminded me that the magazine "Australian Wood Review" did a chisel review back in 2004. Victor chisels were not included in the review but Kirschen and Lie-Nielsen chisels were. I posted a run-down of the review on the Australian Woodwork Forums in response to someone who was asking for advice about chisels. Here is a link to that thread.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au ... hp?t=25318


P.S. Thanks Adam for the tractor link.

 

[Alf]

Sorry, dive in without disturbing the topic. But its about to go elsewhere to the merits of A2 shortly so....

 

[Mirboo]

Thanks Alf for the reply about A2. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I haven't had a problem with my A2 chisles yet, but I haven't had them all that long either. 8-[ So far I have used them more for chopping than paring. Maybe I will have a problem down the track when I'm chopping into a chunk of cast iron eucalypt. [-o<

 

[David C]

AHOY! Broadside salvo of grape shot coming........

Cheap Japanese chisels are horrible. They are badly ground, badly shaped, often crooked with nasty hoops, and can take forever to prepare.

My extensive tests and use on L-N A2 cryo chisels lead me to exactly the same conclusion as the "Australian Wood Review" test which Mirboo kindly posted.

Alf's difficulty with A2 seems directly related to her chosen sharpening method. While tougher and taking a little longer to grind on my Tormek, the sharpening of A2 takes me about three strokes more. The whole resharpening process taking no more than 4 minutes.

I have pared hardwoods of all kinds, with a 32 degree angle, for many years, using both Japanese and A2. This works perfectly well if the edge is SHARP.

Jim Kingshott's quote is his! There is a salutory story to go with it for any who care to read it.
Jim was one of the last of the traditional, apprentice trained cabinetmakers. He had vast experience and evidently an open mind, as demonstrated by his conversion to Japanese tools and WATERSTONES. He was extremely helpful and kind to me when I rang up to discuss obscure technical issues. We are unlikely to ever see a man of his depth of experience and knowledge again.

David Charlesworth

 

[Shady]

Just as an aside, for Nads, actually Veritas/Lee-Valley do have an 'own brand' set of chisels:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=30028&cat=1,41504,43500&ap=1

But I suspect that the 'purely functional' handles may well leave you cold... :wink: