Victor Plane Irons

[Vann]

Hi all.

I note that APTC sell Victor forged plane irons alongside their Clifton cap irons.

What is the difference between a Victor iron and a Clifton iron? Are they the same thing with a difference name, or are they a thinner version made specifially for APTC by Clico/Clifton? Or is there another manufacturer of forged plane irons in the UK?

Vann.

 

[nimmaj]

Hello,

In the description of the clifton number 7 on the axminster site it says:

60mm Victor forged blade

...so presumably that means that victor blades are clifton blades. Whether they're exactly the same thickness etc I don't know, i'm afraid.

HTH

Ben

 

[Paul Chapman]

I think they are the same. I bought an unused Victor blade from a second-hand shop (£5 \/ ) and it seems identical to my other Clifton blades.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Vann]

Thanks Paul & Ben,

What threw me is that one reviewer of the blades says "Essentially a clifton blade but not quite as thick although it is thicker than a Hock iron I have" so that made me think they were different.

Is Victor a APTC brand, or was Victor the factory that made these irons before Clico bought them and launched the Clifton brand?

Paul, does the stamp on your Victor iron say "Clifton, Hand Forged, Sheffield" like a Clifton iron does?

Vann.

 

[bugbear]

I think they are the same. I bought an unused Victor blade from a second-hand shop (£5 \/ ) and it seems identical to my other Clifton blades.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

If we're talking about a new APTC line of products, I don't see how the one you bought s/h could be from that line.

I would guess what you bought WAS a Clifton blade.

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

Paul, does the stamp on your Victor iron say "Clifton, Hand Forged, Sheffield" like a Clifton iron does?

Both stamps have "Hand Forged, Sheffield". But the Victor blade has "Victor" in the centre where the other one has "Clifton". They are the same thickness.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

The blades are good...it's that two piece chipbreaker that irritates me :x as the front bit keeps falling off, so in order to do the 'ruler trick' I had to completely remove the cb anyway - Rob

 

[Mikey R]

The blades are good...it's that two piece chipbreaker that irritates me :x as the front bit keeps falling off, so in order to do the 'ruler trick' I had to completely remove the cb anyway - Rob

Hi Rob,

Sorry if this is a stupid question, Ive only just come across the DC ruler trick, but I thought its only needed for older / pitted blades? Wouldnt a new Victor / Clifton be just as easy to sharpen the normal way?

Im asking as Ive got a new Ray Iles iron and it sharpens really nicely, no tricks needed - but Im always up for learning new stuff

 

[woodbloke]

The blades are good...it's that two piece chipbreaker that irritates me :x as the front bit keeps falling off, so in order to do the 'ruler trick' I had to completely remove the cb anyway - Rob

Hi Rob,

Sorry if this is a stupid question, Ive only just come across the DC ruler trick, but I thought its only needed for older / pitted blades? Wouldnt a new Victor / Clifton be just as easy to sharpen the normal way?

Im asking as Ive got a new Ray Iles iron and it sharpens really nicely, no tricks needed - but Im always up for learning new stuff

Mike - no questions are ever stupid :wink: If you're familiar with the technique it's not for flattening the backs of old or pitted blades, but will give a couple of mm of polished steel on the back of the blade adjacent to the edge. Whatever sort of blade you have, it's still needs to have the back flattened before honing can begin. The quality of the surface grinding on the back will determine just how much flattening is needed. LN's need very little, LV's need none (they're now lapped anyway) and Record ordinaire need quite a lot :shock: - Rob

 

[Mikey R]

If you're familiar with the technique it's not for flattening the backs of old or pitted blades, but will give a couple of mm of polished steel on the back of the blade adjacent to the edge. Whatever sort of blade you have, it's still needs to have the back flattened before honing can begin. The quality of the surface grinding on the back will determine just how much flattening is needed. LN's need very little, LV's need none (they're now lapped anyway) and Record ordinaire need quite a lot :shock: - Rob

Cheers Rob - I got a 60mm iron for my jointer and a replacement for my Record spokeshave, the original blade was so buckled (I guess from the hardening process) I was unable to get the back flat.

In both cases, when I flattened the back, I found that they were both slightly concave. Next to the edge, about 6mm polished up nicely, then I had a rough spot where the metal didnt touch the stone, then I had another polished spot next to the slot. The rough spot doesnt bother me as when the edge eventually gets to that spot I'll be able to polish another 6mm or so.

I would like to know if anyone else has seen this? I think the Ashley Iles chisles are ground slightly concave?

Like I said, they cut really nicely, so Im really pleased! Big difference in honing carbon steel than A2, I much prefer the high carbon blades!



Hmm, Ive just thought - I should probably check the flatness of my oil stones, that could cause this, if they are a little dished then the blades would only touch at the edges...


EDIT: Ive just checked my fine India and my Arkansas stone, they arent dished - must be the blades then!

 

[woodbloke]

Hmm, Ive just thought - I should probably check the flatness of my oil stones, that could cause this, if they are a little dished then the blades would only touch at the edges...

Do this urgently! If they're concave you'll start to wear away the corners before the middle, in other words, the blade back will start to wear unevenly...not good - Rob

 

[Mikey R]

Hmm, Ive just thought - I should probably check the flatness of my oil stones, that could cause this, if they are a little dished then the blades would only touch at the edges...

Do this urgently! If they're concave you'll start to wear away the corners before the middle, in other words, the blade back will start to wear unevenly...not good - Rob

Cheers Rob, Ive just checked them and theyre all flat. We're safe!

Off topic, how long does it normally take oil stones to wear? Ive had mine for about 6 months?

 

[Vann]

If we're talking about a new APTC line of products, I don't see how the one you bought s/h could be from that line.

Hi Bugbear. No it's not a new line. APTC have always had Victor irons and Clifton cap irons on their website, since I first found it about 8 months ago.

Cheers, Vann

 

[Paul Chapman]

In David Charlesworth's book "Furniture-Making Techniques, Volume Two", he did a review of various replacement plane irons. One of them was the "3.1mm Victor blade, made by Clico". I think you can be sure that it is a Clifton blade.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Harbo]

Mikey R wrote

In both cases, when I flattened the back, I found that they were both slightly concave. Next to the edge, about 6mm polished up nicely, then I had a rough spot where the metal didnt touch the stone, then I had another polished spot next to the slot. The rough spot doesnt bother me as when the edge eventually gets to that spot I'll be able to polish another 6mm or so.

I would like to know if anyone else has seen this? I think the Ashley Iles chisles are ground slightly concave?

I don't know about the Ashley Iles but Japanese chisels and irons are made with a hollow back.

Rod

 

[bugbear]

If we're talking about a new APTC line of products, I don't see how the one you bought s/h could be from that line.

Hi Bugbear. No it's not a new line. APTC have always had Victor irons and Clifton cap irons on their website, since I first found it about 8 months ago.

Cheers, Vann

Ah. I was confused. I was thinking "Victor" was a new branding that APTC bought in for their saws about a year back.

But you're right.

They've sold Clifton/Victor blades for ages - 2004 at least.

BugBear

 

[Vann]

In David Charlesworth's book "Furniture-Making Techniques, Volume Two", he did a review of various replacement plane irons. One of them was the "3.1mm Victor blade, made by Clico". I think you can be sure that it is a Clifton blade.l

Thanks for your input gentlemen. I now know I can order a Victor iron with confidence, and it will be the same quailty as a Clifton iron (with a typo in the logo )

How did DC rate the Victor replacement iron? Is he an O1 or an A2 man?

Cheers, Vann.

 

[bugbear]

In David Charlesworth's book "Furniture-Making Techniques, Volume Two", he did a review of various replacement plane irons. One of them was the "3.1mm Victor blade, made by Clico". I think you can be sure that it is a Clifton blade.l

Thanks for your input gentlemen. I now know I can order a Victor iron with confidence, and it will be the same quailty as a Clifton iron (with a typo in the logo )

How did DC rate the Victor replacement iron? Is he an O1 or an A2 man?

Cheers, Vann.

Hell, DC doesn't like sharpening, so he likes S53 (Holtey IIRC) and other exotics!

Add: while DC is a fine craftsman, when it comes to in-depth blade reviews, I would prefer Brent Beach and Steve Elliot:

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/bladetest.html

http://bladetest.infillplane.com/index.html

Sometimes amateurs have more time and dedication than professionals.

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

How did DC rate the Victor replacement iron? Is he an O1 or an A2 man?

It wasn't an in-depth test. He was of the view that all the replacement blades on offer were superior to standard Record and Stanley blades.

There's an interesting interview here with Ron Hock where he comments on A2 steel compared with high carbon steel. Sums it up very well, I think http://cherrycreekwoodworks.blogspot.co ... -hock.html

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[matthewwh]

Axminsters 'Victor' irons are indeed the same thing as Clifton irons, the only difference is the stamp.

The backs of Ashley Iles chisels are ground very slightly concave over their entire length (as opposed to the substantial central hollow on the back of a Japanese chisel). The very slight concavity (approximately 3-7 thou) ensures that the cutting edge is the first part of the blade to make contact with the sharpening media, thereby making it easy to polish off the burr created when honing the bevel and maintain a small polished area that forms the other side of the edge. This is by no means a new phenomena and has always been a feature of the best quality English chisels and, as far as I know, only possible with hand grinding.

This degree of concavity is just enough to have the desired effect without adversely affecting the accuracy of the blade. by the time you have honed them a couple of times they will be able to take a paring cut over the full length of the blade without the blade diving by more than a tenth of a millimetre; i.e. exhibition cabinetmaking accuracy.

The big hollow in the back of Japanese chisels is included to reduce the amount of steel that needs to be removed in order to prepare the backs. The Japanese leave the steel that forms the cutting edge and the back of the chisel much harder than western toolmakers, we recently took delivery of some professional grade chisels from Fujikawa that are RC67 and some new Hitachi HSS ones at RC68, as opposed to the RC60-61 in the better quality western tools. Honing a fully flat back at this hardness really would be a labour of love!