Veritas MKII Honing Guide

[Philly]

Hi All
I received my new Veritas honing guide the other day-I know you've read Alf's review but thought you'd appreciate my thoughts :lol:
I was quite surprised by what a weighty little beast it is-and very nicely engineered. Surprisingly easy to set up and use, once you've read the instructions and set it up for the first time.
And most surprising of all-it is a total no-brainer!! No room for errors or a bad result. And I tried......... :wink: I was really pleased with the results-and repeatable too!
So if you are in the market for a honing guide do check this one out-a well thought out product that does exactly what you want.
Cheers
Philly

 

[Philly]

Forgot to mention-its on offer for £30 from....http://www.handytools.co.uk/acatalog/Honing_Guide.html
Cheers
Philly

 

[Mcluma]

When i bought my planes from axminster, I also bought the stanley sharping kit for 13,89

Not as fancy as your Veritas one though Phill :wink:

McLuma

 

[Waka]

I'll second what Philly says about the guide, it makes me feel half professional at sharpening.

 

[Alf]

No room for errors or a bad result.

A word of caution. There is room for error, if you get too confident and less careful. But I'd be obliged if you didn't ask me how I know that... :-$

Cheers, Alf

 

[Waka]

There is room for error, if you get too confident and less careful. But I'd be obliged if you didn't ask me how I know that... :-$

Cheers, Alf

Pray do tell, how can we improve if you don't share lessons learned :shock:

 

[Ham]

Thanks to Philly for the advice re the offer at Handytools - I've just received email to confirm that my order has been shipped 2 hours after placing it.
Cheers, David

 

[Philly]

No problem :wink:
Philly

 

[Alf]

how can we improve if you don't share lessons learned :shock:

Well if I knew what I'd done, I would, but when I went back to replicate the problem, I couldn't. #-o I eventaually put it down to trying to fight the wide roller while trying to sharpen a cambered edge. :roll: Never had any problem with the Eclipse-a-like, but then that does have a narrow roller...

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

Just a que, Alf--not trying to start anything (don't ya just love it when a post begins that way?).

How much cambor do you normally put on your tools? For my smoothers, I've found the MK.II as sold to be adequate and not too difficult to use for the degree of cambor on them.

For my larger bench planes that have a larger cambor it works, but not as well as the older LV guide. Is that what you ran into?

I have another no-name guide. It works great for the cambor, but I've gotten so use to the MK.II due to, well, other reasons, that I find the no-name brand a bit of a pain to go back to.

I won't exactly tell you what I did to modify the guide. I'll leave it up to your imagination. It would take your adventurous tool modification spirit, and involves a little disassembly and a lathe...

 

[Alf]

Mike, my troubles are mainly down to bevel-up planes needing greater camber to allow for the low bedding angle. For the accuracy of bevel angles for the bevel-up irons the Mk2 is great, which is why I'm still perservering, but creating the camber is a ghastly struggle between what I want to do and what the ruddy guide wants to do. In fact "guide" is a misnomer; I find it more like a flippin' straight jacket. I don't think the weight of the guide is helping either; it's at the back of the guide and not at the cutting edge, so it tends to mean the wheel is dictating even more what happens, rather than my pressure at the edge of the blade on the stone. The wide wheel for narrow chisels I like*, but for cambered plane blades nil points. I can get a camber, but it's much more hit and miss how it'll turn out than I can get using either an Eclipse-a-like or freehand, and it's just such a fight to get there. It's exactly this sort of thing that's always put me off honing guides; they so often don't guide but instead dictate. :x

Cheers, Alf

*If I didn't, I'd have already had that roller off and had at it with a file...

 

[MikeW]

"...my troubles are mainly down to bevel-up planes needing greater camber to allow for the low bedding angle."
"... but creating the camber is a ghastly struggle between what I want to do and what the ruddy guide wants to do."
Hi Alf,

As I had a couple guides I took the chance on modifying one for consistency of camboring BD blades.

I don't know if what I do will help or not on the BU blades as regards camboring. I set the guide and blade for back bevels and hone the cambor on the backs.

With the blade at the extra distance from the clamp, it allows great pressure to be put on each corner. The practical effect is the same as camboring the bevel itself.

 

[MikeW]

I am afraid I was in too much of a hurry when I fired off the BB of BU plane blades response.

***This will to some degree create a Back Bevel across the entire blade. You cannot get satisfactory performance with a back bevel on a LA BU plane with a BB stretching across the entire width***

General guidelines:
Take it slow. A little back bevel (BB) goes a long way on a bevel up (BU) plane blade.
Do the BB before honing the primary bevel.
Use the Green BB setting. (You can actually use any of them, but the technique is very different.)
If your guide is rolling on the stone's surface, project the blade as far out of the clamp as you can. The "real" angle of the BB means little.
Use very little pressure and only on one corner at a time.
Stop frequently to see if you are getting a BB that either is getting close to the center or has gotten there. Do not go further. If you have been applying pressure only at the corners, you should see the honing is wider out towards the corner than towards the middle.
Be reasonably close in honing the BB on both sides of the blade. In other words, try to get the amount of the hone equal on both sides of the blade. This will affect where on the plane the shaving is taken when you are done.
Shoot for something like this:

You hopefully can see that the hone on this blades back tapers out towards the corners.

Next, you need to hone the primary bevel as per the instructions that come with the MK.II for your desired bevel angle(s).

As the back of the blade faces up during honing of the primary bevel, watch while honing to see the tapers getting smaller from the center to each corner. If you take these all the way out, the cambering is lost.

The smaller the tapers, the less the camber.

For many, the above works fine. For others, myself included, I freehand the cambers after honing the primary bevels. After removing the blade from the jig, I hold the blade with my right hand, lifting slightly the side opposite the corner that is being honed, and using my left hand with a single finger on the corners and using it to apply pressure, then the other corner is done.

Geez, I know I've forgotten something. I need to get back to my company. If I have helped you to mess up your plane blade--especially if you ran right out to your shop and tried it based on my previous message, feel free to kick me the next time you see me :roll:

Please feel free to contact me via email if you need any help--heck you can call me too if you feel up to it. Number is on the web site.

 

[mudman]

Just been trying out my new MkII.
Verdict - I love it. =D> \/ =D>
It is so easy to set it up to the correct angle and to get the blade in nice and square.
One thing I noticed though is that it is important to get the width of the blade correct when clamping on the register. I guessed a spokeshave blade at about 1 1/2" when it was really 2 and a bit. This resulted in a skewed grind, correcting the setting gave a correct square grind.
It's great, all the guesswork and fussing removed.
Reground the bevel on an old Marples 3/8" paring chisel to 15 degrees that has been languishing in a drawer for a while now since I bought it (£8.50 sticker still on it 8) ). It had been badly sharpened several times in its lifetime and had not only secondary and tertiary bevels but seemed to go all the way up to denary bevels. Found the amount of blade projecting on the yellow setting a bit of a problem though due to the reduction in length of stone available but swapped to using the back-bevel setting and much better. Although I did note that the two settings are not identical although only about 1/2 degree or so, nothing to worry about. Loverly chisel now, just got to sort out its bigger brothers, (3/4 and 1"). Think they cost a bit more though, at least a quid extra each.

As to camber, 'fraid I can't help you there as I'm a member of the straight edge club at the moment.

 

[Alf]

Mike, comprehensive instruction, but missing my point. If I wanted to change my sharpening method to accommodate the guide, I might as well change my whole way of planing and forget the cambers altogether. But I don't, and I don't want to fuss about with back bevels to accommodate it either. Basically I'm an obstinate so-and-so who's damned if she's going to change her ways of woodworking painfully learnt over 20 years just because of a bit of kit that's supposed to help. So I shall continue to nag about a narrow roller, use the Mk2 when I feel equal to the fight, and freehand as usual 90% of the time. :roll: It's a PITA 'cos other than the cambering I think the guide's pretty good and I'd probably be using it more. Just my usual bad luck that I should like cambered blades while that Canadian manufacturer well known to us, doesn't. But thanks anyway.

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

Well, looks like I'm 0 for 3 tonight. Shoulda tried harder to sleep tonight .

Just sounded like 1) you were trying to use the guide for cambering, 2) couldn't accomplish it with the guide on the Primary bevel side, 3) were going to continue trying.

Offered as an alternative with no intention of changing any one, their sharpening, planing or the very core of their woodworking lives.

I think I'll just shut this damned thing off...

 

[Alf]

Just sounded like 1) you were trying to use the guide for cambering, 2) couldn't accomplish it with the guide on the Primary bevel side, 3) were going to continue trying.

Mike, yep, sorry. I am trying it still, in the hopes I might suddenly get the knack, but I'm drawing the line at completely changing what I'd usually do, 'cos that seems unreasonable. My grumble isn't with you, but you-know-who. :-$ I'll still keep trying because I don't believe I am, or will be, the only camber-lovin', bevel-up using, Mk2 wielding person on the planet who doesn't want to have to muck about with extra steps to achieve what they want to. And with DC's increasing profile in North America I think the demand for cambering will grow. Actually, that's a thought. Maybe I should try using those plastic strips of his... :-k But sorry, your suggestion is appreciated, honest. Just it might be seen as undermining my argument for a narrow wheel, so if you could just keep it quiet... :-$ :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Midnight]

I still don't see what the prob is... Straight edge or cambered, I manage both just fine with either the Mk1 and the Mk11... awesome piece of kit..

 

[MikeW]

Hi Mike,

There is an ongoing battle with the ease and accuracy/degree of cambering an iron, especially on a BU iron and especially one sharpened at a high angle.

This is because of a couple things aside from any technique issues. I have been in communication with many from several localities with this general gripe. It is not, in my opinion, LV's most shining hour in design.

However, many are able to overcome these problems by one of a few changes to their sharpening status quo, whichever they are most comfortable with.

It can be argued that it would be best if LV addressed them.

The technique I posted above is not for the faint of heart. One could seriously affect their BU iron. Not ruin per se. But if done improperly it can take serious work to retore it.

So then, what are some of the issues?

A BU iron has a short projection past the clamp. With such a steep pitch to the whole honing guide (little distance between the edge of the iron and the roller) combined with the width of the iron make it seem as if one is not producing a "decent" camber.

However, a BU iron needs very little camber to begin with. At least if the said plane is configured as a smoother taking no more than .002" shaving.

In a BU plane such as a BUPP (hi Derek :roll: ) where one may be taking a thicker shaving, obviously a proportionally larger camber is most often desired. Combine that with A2 steel in the iron, and it is a PITA to accurately roll the edges of the iron due, once again, to the short projection of the iron and wide roller. A roller as an option the length of the former guide's would be a start.

But...as I have swapped out the rollers between the guides I know this still fails in so far as cambering a HA BU iron....because of the aforementioned issues.

Which is why I eventually took it upon myself to remove the long roller and placed it on the lathe. After finding the center lengthwise, I marked off the size of the former roller, splitting its length equally off the center mark. I then turned it down with a nice sweep ending about an 1/8" smaller at each end. This works fine for me, but it was done as an experiment.

I do not recommend this and will probably not find favor with he who must not be named :wink:

Most people I have discussed this with have taken a two step approach for the BU irons. The bevel is honed and the camber is done freehand. It does not take too many strokes, and over a few sharpenings it produces a fine camber.

This issue of camber is not as big of one for BD irons being produced on the jig. Due in part to the amount of projection, a BD iron has more stability while pressing down on alternate corners. This does also work for a BU iron, but the tactile feedback is different. That can be difficult for a user to overcome.

That many users do not experience these problems may or not really say anything. Most people are tremendously happy just to put a straight, square edge on a tool. But some, like yourself, are not experiencing difficulty.

But again, I want to add that a BU iron simply does not need much of a camber else it is very easy to loose significant width of cut. It does need to be finely shaped though else one ends up with smooth, rounded plane track.

This to me is the one best reason to argue for a design change. If BU planes are going to make significant changes in the way people produce smooth surfaces, manufacturers of honing guides--aids that should aid accuracy and repeatability--need to take a better look at their philosophy behind the current decisions.

I have heard a rumor that there will be somewhat a user's guide produced by a couple handsome gentlemen :roll: in the very near future. It will cover general use, differing types of irons, including skews and odd narrow chisels, and tips for making your honing experience a more pleasurable one :wink:

I now expect the hangman to show up at my door...

 

[ydb1md]

I've found an easy way to camber with the Mk II. I wrap a piece of black electrical tape twice around the center of the roller and it gives me enough flexibility to put a nice camber on the blade while being wide enough to flatten the blade flat if i want to.