Veritas Bevel Up Jointer

[Karl]

Hi All

Wondered if anyone had much experience with the above???

I have two problems:

1) I am using the fence attachment for shooting straight edges. Except my edges aren't coming out straight. The fence is square to the sole of the plane. The problem seems to be that the fence lines up with the extreme left hand side of the cutting edge (when viewed from above). This means that the plane is not balanced on the edge of the work (3/4" oak), and has a natural tendency to lean to the right, giving a chamfered edge. I know the obvious answer is to clamp the work so that greater sideways pressure can be applied to the fence, but this will further reduce the depth of board which can be jointed, as the fence will run into the vice.

2) I am not having much joy in surfacing boards. I am using a separate blade for surfacing to that which I use for jointing. How much of a camber should be put on the blade for surfacing? I have seen DC's DVD in which he says that low angle planes need greater camber, etc etc. But how much of a radius? The BUJ has a 2 1/4" blade.

I hope any users (or non-users, for that matter) out there can help.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Slim]

I don't know if this will help cause I haven't read through it, but have you seen this

 

[MooreToolsPlease]

if the fence is square to the sole of the plane, the only thing I can think it might be is that the blades projection isn't parallel with the sole of the plane.
THe camber that I use on my bench planes, was 4 strokes on a 1000 grit water stone on the extreme corners, then 2 strokes half way between the centre of the blade and the end.
On the finer stones I use 3 strokes at each of the 5 points to maintain the camber.

Hope this helps

 

[Karl]

Sorry, I should have said. I read (and re-read) Alf's review before buying either plane or attachment. It doesn't seem to help much on this point of the plane tipping when used with the fence. Perhaps Alf could give me her thoughts on this issue?

Cheers

Karl

 

[JesseM]

I have the fence and jointer. I think I know what you are talking about. I keep my left hand on the fence pressing sideways, and the right hand is pressing down and forward. If you keep that fence registered to the wood you can't help but make it square. Except if the blade is out of whack as has already been mentioned.

Sometimes it feels like the plane gets lodged or stuck in a bad position. This could be due to a freshly machined sole (use wax). But if you keep that side force on it it'll keep it square.

Oops made a couple of typos.

 

[Karl]

JesseM - are you clamping the work whilst jointing? If so, in an end vice with dogs, or front vice? I am not clamping - the work is just butted up to a wooden stop fixed to the bench. Just don't seem to be able to give enough sideways "force" to keep the fence square to the work.

One solution may be to attach a shim to the fence so that the work is centred on the blade, but obviously this would mean different thickness shims for different thickness work......

Also, have you tried yours for surfacing? I was hoping it would work similair to the BU Jack as also reviewed by Alf, but I don't seem to be getting those kind of results. Still, could be (and probably is!) the user........


Karl

 

[whiteant]

Have you tried adding a wooden fence to the existing metal one?
That would have the effect of bringing the Oak nearer the centre of the plane and help give you a better feel of balance.

 

[JesseM]

JesseM - are you clamping the work whilst jointing? If so, in an end vice with dogs, or front vice? I am not clamping - the work is just butted up to a wooden stop fixed to the bench. Just don't seem to be able to give enough sideways "force" to keep the fence square to the work.

One solution may be to attach a shim to the fence so that the work is centred on the blade, but obviously this would mean different thickness shims for different thickness work......

Also, have you tried yours for surfacing? I was hoping it would work similair to the BU Jack as also reviewed by Alf, but I don't seem to be getting those kind of results. Still, could be (and probably is!) the user........

Karl

Yes, using a vise. I think it would hard to not use in a vise. You need the sideways force.

Haven't had any problems surfacing. Works a bit easier than my #8. The other advantage being I can thrown in a higher bevel blade to reduce tearout.

What kinds of problems are you having with surfacing? Also what condition is the wood in. Rough or planed to some extent.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I am not clamping - the work is just butted up to a wooden stop fixed to the bench. Just don't seem to be able to give enough sideways "force" to keep the fence square to the work.

Karl,

When you are using any plane with a fence, most of the pressure should be applied to the fence to ensure that it is kept in contact and square with the workpiece. If you are not securely clamping the work, either in a vice or between dogs on the bench top, then I think you are bound to have problems.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

I think the question of sideways force is obviously the issue. If you need to clamp the work, surely this has the effect of increasing the minimum size of board which can be jointed. e.g. If the fence is 2 inches deep, and we need another, say, 2 inches clamped in the vice, then the width of board which can be jointed is at least 4 inches. Also, I may be wrong, but in Alf's review of the fence, I don't think that she has it clamped (certainly not in a front vice).

I don't have an end vice ( ), but would dogs be capable of holding the work stable enough to enable sufficient sideways pressure to be applied????

JesseM - re: surfacing. I think my probs come from the width of cut being taken - ie insufficient camber on the blade. I am currently working on English Oak, well seasoned and tough as nails. Do you have a cambered blade?

This plane is making me feel a bit at the moment.....

Karl

 

[Paul Chapman]

Karl,

You could use a Veritas Wonder pup and a Veritas bench dog to hold your workpiece, then use an additional Wonder pup against the side of the workpiece to resist sideways pressure

[/url][/img]

Details of the Veritas pups and dogs here http://www.brimarc.com/home.php3?page=p ... c=C_106_14

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[JesseM]

I think the question of sideways force is obviously the issue. If you need to clamp the work, surely this has the effect of increasing the minimum size of board which can be jointed. e.g. If the fence is 2 inches deep, and we need another, say, 2 inches clamped in the vice, then the width of board which can be jointed is at least 4 inches. Also, I may be wrong, but in Alf's review of the fence, I don't think that she has it clamped (certainly not in a front vice).

I don't have an end vice ( ), but would dogs be capable of holding the work stable enough to enable sufficient sideways pressure to be applied????

JesseM - re: surfacing. I think my probs come from the width of cut being taken - ie insufficient camber on the blade. I am currently working on English Oak, well seasoned and tough as nails. Do you have a cambered blade?

This plane is making me feel a bit at the moment.....

Karl

I don't think you will benefit much from camber with BU planes. I think Derek tested this once.

Don't quote me on this, but what I have noticed with regards to BU and BD is that as BD planes dull they become harder to push. BU as they dull tend to skip and not take shaving at all. This may be just me, but I would check the sharpness first then check the mouth to make sure it open enough.

 

[Paul Chapman]

re: surfacing. I think my probs come from the width of cut being taken - ie insufficient camber on the blade. I am currently working on English Oak, well seasoned and tough as nails. Do you have a cambered blade?

Karl,

I don't have any experience of Veritas bevel up planes but I do have recent experience of planing lots of oak by hand. I use two types of plane - a modified Record #7 with the blade heavily cambered like a scrub plane and a Clifton #7 with the blade honed straight. If I have a lot of material to remove, I find that using the #7 "scrub" easily removes thick shavings quickly - here's a picture

[/url][/img]

I then finish off with the Clifton #7 with a finely set, straight blade and the mouth closed up fairly tight.

The point about using the "scrub"-type plane is that you are just using the centre of the blade and there's not much resistance. You will find that planing is quite easy like this. But do make sure that your blades are honed really sharp, with a mirror finish. You will also need to re-hone them quite frequently with wood like oak.

Hope this helps.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Karl]

Paul & Jesse M

Thanks for the pointers.

The wonder dog/pup idea was something I had been thinking about, but I was concerned that if pressure is applied towards the top of the workpiece, then it could still "tip" if excess pressure is applied. I don't expect so, but knowing my luck.....

I was surprised ( ) by your comments regarding blade camber. I would point out that I am only an amateur, albeit one who knows how to sharpen a blade (compliments of DC's dvd no 1!). But I do not have a great deal of working with various timbers, as you may have guessed.....

Anyway, the Oak seems to react as you suggest - on a fine setting the plane takes nice, thin shavings. But not long after, comes the inconsistent shavings......

I think I probably had unrealistic expectations of how much Oak an A2 blade could plane before re-sharpening :roll:

Cheers

Karl

 

[JesseM]

Paul & Jesse M

Thanks for the pointers.

The wonder dog/pup idea was something I had been thinking about, but I was concerned that if pressure is applied towards the top of the workpiece, then it could still "tip" if excess pressure is applied. I don't expect so, but knowing my luck.....

I was surprised ( ) by your comments regarding blade camber. I would point out that I am only an amateur, albeit one who knows how to sharpen a blade (compliments of DC's dvd no 1!). But I do not have a great deal of working with various timbers, as you may have guessed.....

Anyway, the Oak seems to react as you suggest - on a fine setting the plane takes nice, thin shavings. But not long after, comes the inconsistent shavings......

I think I probably had unrealistic expectations of how much Oak an A2 blade could plane before re-sharpening :roll:

Cheers

Karl

I am definitely amateur as well. I have had experience with lets see: Southern Yellow Pine, White Pine, Poplar, Soft Maple, Cherry, Red/White Oak, and Bubinga.

Oak is funny and similar in behavior to the Bubinga. Bubinga is very hard, and has strange grain. I used a 50 degree bevel on the BU to get tear out free shavings, but had to resharpen often. Was able to either use a combination of 25 and a close mouth or 35 and not worry about the mouth much on the oak to elimiate tear out. But like I mentioned the BU acts differently when the blade dulls. It almost feels like the plane just stops working right. Sharpen it and see if it cuts better.

I have a hard time reading the grain on Oak. Out of the blue I will get tear out for no apparent reason. Which is the reason I try to completely eliminate it with a higher bevel blade. Bubinga at least you can tell where its gonna happen.

 

[Karl]

I have a hard time reading the grain on Oak. Out of the blue I will get tear out for no apparent reason.

I'm glad you said that - I was getting fine, full width shavings, and then - wham. Deep tearout. I assumed it was me.....

In fact, to overcome the problem, I convinced my wife to buy me a LN 85 Cabinet Scraper for my birthday :lol:

Karl

 

[woodbloke]

Karl - my input fwiw....
To shoot and edge, I would not use the fence attachment. Have another look at Paul's pic, this is how the timber should be supported on a bench top, which ought to be level in both horizontal planes, very important. Hold the plane as Paul is doing with his left hand so that a thin shaving is removed, keep checking with a square. The higher side (if out of square) is removed by using the fingers of the left hand as a guide and moving the plane across the edge so that a different part of the blade cuts...I use a very slightly cambered blade to do this. Difficult to explain, much easier to practice.
Paul has also got a good technique going for planing a wide surface, much good advice given. I would use a No5 for initial preparation, again with slightly cambered blade and then use the longer Veritas set very fine for the last few shavings to true the board - Rob

 

[Paul Kierstead]

If you have some wooden clamps, you can clamp a couple to the face of the board, flush with the edge. This will keep the board up right. Then, when you use the fence, you can clamp the *clamps* to the bench to keep the whole thing from moving. This takes 1 or 2 wooden clamps (to hold the board up right) and another clamp of any sort to clamp the wooden clamps to the bench. It works well; not as fast as a should vise, but effective and can get you through. It is pretty impossible to use the fence without clamping. I don't think the wonder pops provide enough registration.

 

[Karl]

Thanks all for your comments.

I will try the hand planing technique (seen DC's vid's and books on the matter, so I know what you are trying to describe Rob). Looks a little beyond my skill level though - hence the "easy" option of the jointer fence :lol:

Perhaps that kitchen trim will have to be made from a more forgiving wood...........

Cheers

Karl

 

[engineer one]

must say i am a little concerned that you guys talk about losing the edge on your planes so quickly using them on oak. so far apart from fettling my LN No 9 to allow me to properly use the shooting board, my edges have lasted very well :?

that includes my LV No 6, as well as the LN 164 and 62 both bevel up items. they have worked both maple and oak so i wonder whether your sharpening is up to snuff??

no disrespect, but surely you should not have to re sharpen so regularly.
a quick hone maybe but :roll:

the LV fence addition is quite useful, but does require a new view on holding the wood, and you cannot use very narrow wood. i have found in my recent re-learning that it is better to use the plane alone. there is something to be said for using a sacrificial piece of wood next door to ensure a wider base for the plane to run on, or working at an angle is not a bad answer either, that way it is easier to see the plane tilting. but if you are doing it for jointing, then do two bits together, and that way even if angled, they will fit together.

as for holding the wood. have you thought about a bench wedge??

basically a couple of lumps of say 12mm wood screwed to the bench, and then a wedge which goes alongside the bit you are planing, will hold it and keep it upright.

paul :wink: