Veneer vacuum press advice

[sihollies]

Hi,

I hoping that I can glean some knowledge from the wealth of experience found here?

I am a hobbyist who primarily works with veneers.
My projects include marquetry pictures, jewellery/trinket boxes & I produce alot of parquetry based designs.

Over the years, I have been using homemade clamping cauls to apply pressure when gluing up my pictures, but I am considering buying a vacuum veneer press.
After alot of researching it has become apparent that the cost of vacuum press kits are extremely expensive and completely unrealistic for me to buy, as all my projects are donated to friends and family, & I certainly do not profit from any of the items I make.

I was hoping that someone here could advise on a more cost effective product that is available which is an upgrade to my basic cauls.
This upgrade isn't a necessity as I normally have success with my current process, but I just have a whim to try an upgraded method.

Many, many thanks in advance,
Simon

 

[thetyreman]

before vaccum presses, they used to use hot hide glue, it's not that hard to make, as an introduction check this video out, all you need is the hot hide glue and a hammer veneer tool, I think it's the most cost effective way of veneering anything, it's a bit messy but definitely the traditional way how it was done for hundreds of years until the early/mid 20th century.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2020/03/20/hammer-veneering-with-hide-glue

 

[Yojevol]

Vac systems needn't cost a fortune. See the one I sold recently here. S/h pumps are readily available on ebay from about £40 and bags can be made from plastic sheeting. Connecting pump to bag can be done with basic plumbing fittings.
I would think it will only be worthwhile going to a vac system if you're wanting to make larger panels than you've done to date. I regularly used a couple of bits of MDF and clamps in preference to my vac press for smaller pieces.
Brian

 

[sihollies]

Many thanks 'thetyreman'

I do like traditional methods and all the items I make are completely handmade, with no use of power tools (as I don't own many).

It states in the article, 'veneer used to be part of a tree, and as a result it has a heartwood side and a sapwood side. If you wet the veneer and the heartwood is facedown, the sides will curve up and away. I like to apply my veneer with the heartwood side up so that the curve will hold the edges down.'

Would this be a problem when I make parquetry designs, which obviously has many different species of woods in differing orientations?
In my limited experience, I think it would be tricky to comply with the above theory when applying parquetry?

I believe titebond produce a hide glue, but have absolutely no knowledge of how it is applied.
From your experience, could this potentially be a solution?

Any information is greatly appreciated.

Simon

 

[Hornbeam]

My vacuum system is home made. I obtained the pump foc and bought all fittings for around £50. See here Composites Vacuum Equipment - Easy Composites

You ban use plastic film for the bag and butyl mastic sealant tape to seal the bag. Tape can be reused about 10 times before you need to replace. I have found easiest to trim the bag down
Vacuum bagging gets more benfits for larger areas
For smaller pictures marquetry etc you could make up a dedicated press out of 2 pieces of kitchen worktop with corner guide rails and then use 2 6" g clamps on each side. I think this would be good for up to 18" square

 

[HOJ]

This upgrade isn't a necessity as I normally have success with my current process, but I just have a whim to try an upgraded method.

If it ain't broke don't try and fix it!, I wouldn't recommend Hot hide glue, which needs a bain marie type set up and more prep time to get the glue ready for use and if your not using much at a time is a waste, the Titebond hide glue glue is pretty good and worth looking into as an option + it has a good open time & is reversible. A vacuum press is also a good option, but for your volume of work I would keep it simple.

 

[Simo]

The Roarockit vacuum bags (hand pump) are well worth a look. I use mine for all sorts of electric guitar building jobs, including attaching tops to bodies.. it works flawlessly.

https://www.dwsk8boardbuild.co.uk/storehttps://www.roarockit.eu/en/

 

[TRITON]

Bagpress here.
Very good basic system, has all the bits you need.

 

[sihollies]

Thanks all,

I fully take on board & understand you stating 'If it ain't broke don't try and fix it!' HOJ and I do agree, but I fancy trying a different method.
The items I make are relatively small, so I probably don't need a vacuum press, but fancy having a go if the price is right.

Many thanks Simo for confirming that the The Roarockit vacuum bags are effective, but may I ask what glue you use to create your guitars, as I am unaware of which glues are effective in a vacuum bag.

Triton: thanks for your input, but unless there is a glitch on my PC, I cant see a link in your post???

Again, many thanks for your expertise and experience.

Simon

 

[thetyreman]

If it ain't broke don't try and fix it!, I wouldn't recommend Hot hide glue, which needs a bain marie type set up and more prep time to get the glue ready for use and if your not using much at a time is a waste, the Titebond hide glue glue is pretty good and worth looking into as an option + it has a good open time & is reversible. A vacuum press is also a good option, but for your volume of work I would keep it simple.

you're kind of missing the point with hot hide glue, you don't even need clamps, once the glue is pushed out it creates a vaccum, no need for the vaccum press, titebond liquid hide glue won't work using the traditional hammer veneering method, it must be hot hide glue with a fast setting time.

 

[sihollies]

Thanks thetyreman,

Thanks for being frank, it's appreciated.
As I said, I am a hobbyist and have limited experience.

To be perfectly honest, I have read about hide glue but have shirked away from it, as in my head , it requires a fair bit of hardware & practise, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
You stated that hide glue is messy? Is it easy to clean up after curing and how does one clean up the excess??

With your frank and honest directness , I may be coming round to you way of thinking, although apprehensive.

Cheers,
Simon

 

[Simo]

Many thanks Simo for confirming that the The Roarockit vacuum bags are effective, but may I ask what glue you use to create your guitars, as I am unaware of which glues are effective in a vacuum bag.

I use regular Titebond and West System Epoxy. Most jobs involving the vacuum bag are done with the epoxy, as the lack of water in the glue keeps everything flat.

 

[thetyreman]

hello simon, it's only messy because you are supposed to cover both sides of veneer with glue to stop it from curling up, but it can be cleaned up with hot water no problem, and unlike PVA is far more forgiving, it's something like 14lb per square inch pressure once the glue is squeezed out, I am also a hobbyist and don't claim to be expert on it, I'm new to hot hide glue but have been making it with a simple spice jar and I use a cheap wax warmer and stainless steel thermometer, it's 192 gram strength glue I got it from ebay;

this is a way of making it without needing the double boiler:

Using Hide Glue

here's an academic journal on animal glues I found interesting

https://www.researchgate.net/public...their_key_properties_relevant_to_conservation

 

[sihollies]

Thanks Simo and thetyreman,

This is why I stay on this forum, as I welcome advice & I feel privileged to help others with their queries !

There are so many talented and knowledgeable individuals here that dont patronise to the less experienced.

thetyreman: I wanted to use a vacuum press as it it is new to me and and thought it was the way forward, but i have realised, from your advice, that progressing in ones skills doesnt always need to be in line with technology if the traditional methods work.

Simo: the Roarockit kit is definately affordable and will more than likely give it a go.

Once again,
thanks
Simon

 

[Sachakins]

This may be of help, using household items

 

[HOJ]

@thetyreman I'm not missing the point on hide glue, I have been using it for 40 years on restoration work & where appropriate for the work in hand, my point was apart from set up time, its wasteful, it doesn't keep in the pot that long (a day, maybe 2) you could put it in the fridge overnight as an option if have further use and volume left to make it worthwhile, but I would rather make a fresh pot. It does take practice and skill to use, and you don't necessarily have to slather it all over the face either, that's more for lubrication if your hammering, so can be clean ish to apply.

My pot, had it since 1976

14lb per square inch pressure once the glue is squeezed out

That is atmospheric pressure anyway, so applies to everything.

However the point of @sihollies original post was about using a vacuum press! I have an Aipress but at nearly £900.00 its a bit extreme, the skateboard ones look ideal.

 

[Inspector]

There ia another option if you have an air compressor, bigger than a little nail gun type. A Venturi vacuum generator. It uses the compressed air flowing through a venturi to draw the air out of your vacuum bag. There are small ones that use as little as .5 CFM to draw from 25 to as much as 29.5" inches of HG. The higher vacuum ones cost more but they can be had for as little as $25 on Amazon etc. You have to make sure it isn't one that draws a lot of air or your compressor will be running a lot. Some are also quite loud. Good ones have muffle/silencers. I have one that was used for repairs to wings of airliners. A square of plastic taped to the wing forcing the epoxy and glass cloth tight and smooth. It doesn't make much noise, the compressor is louder, just a little hiss. I haven't used it for veneering but see no reason it won't work for small projects like yours. If it turns out you like the process you could later spend the money on an electrically powered vacuum pump and urethane bags or hinged press.

One to compare others to or buy one from a similar company near you. Low Cost Air-Powered Venturi Vacuum Generator: $56.50

Pete

 

[Sean33]

Hi,

I hoping that I can glean some knowledge from the wealth of experience found here?

I am a hobbyist who primarily works with veneers.
My projects include marquetry pictures, jewellery/trinket boxes & I produce alot of parquetry based designs.

Over the years, I have been using homemade clamping cauls to apply pressure when gluing up my pictures, but I am considering buying a vacuum veneer press.
After alot of researching it has become apparent that the cost of vacuum press kits are extremely expensive and completely unrealistic for me to buy, as all my projects are donated to friends and family, & I certainly do not profit from any of the items I make.

I was hoping that someone here could advise on a more cost effective product that is available which is an upgrade to my basic cauls.
This upgrade isn't a necessity as I normally have success with my current process, but I just have a whim to try an upgraded method.

Many, many thanks in advance,
Simon

Do you have an air compressor at all? Only reason I ask is I bought this kit from Axminster(link attached), sure it could be done cheaper but I needed it asap and didn't have time to do my homework
https://www.axminstertools.com/bagp...1936?queryID=d301f12580515c67da815b052d673fb7

 

[sihollies]

Thanks HOJ, I think your frank post above has dissuaded me from trying the hide glue option, as my need for this method is few and far between, and with your influence, I may go ahead with the skateboarding Roarockit kit option, as it won't break the bank.

Sean33: I have an air compressor that I use for finishing projects with a Badger air brush, using water based lacquer. I cant imagine it would be of use for the veneer press application that I am enquiring about, but please advise if I am wrong.

Once again,
Thanks all!
Simon

 

[Inspector]

IF you have a good bag that doesn't leak you can put a quarter turn ball valve between the bag and compressor. When you reach as high a vacuum as it can reach you close the valve and turn off the compressor. If there are leaks the compressor may run continuously. Not good for the compressor. Continuous running may burn it out. So if your compressor can provide the airflow at the pressure needed it can do the job for you.

Pete