Vaccine Passports (domestic).

[RobinBHM]

Foreigners using NHS is a red herring. It's a tiny cost.

People who go through the visa system to live and work here have to pay a lump sum for NHS access as part of the
application.

 

[Rorschach]

@Noel I tried, I really did, I didn't reply to anything Robin posted since our ceasefire, Ignored them all, even the ones that really annoyed me. Robin though just can't help himself, he either cannot keep to a gentleman's agreement or never intended to in the first place. Maybe he is just trying to get threads shut down on purpose? I don't know. I've PM'd him to remind him of what he agreed to but he just ignores them. Is there some way you can hide my posts from him or block him from replying? I am trying to keep it all civil.

 

[sploo]

@Noel I tried, I really did, I didn't reply to anything Robin posted since our ceasefire, Ignored them all, even the ones that really annoyed me. Robin though just can't help himself, he either cannot keep to a gentleman's agreement or never intended to in the first place. Maybe he is just trying to get threads shut down on purpose? I don't know. I've PM'd him to remind him of what he agreed to but he just ignores them. Is there some way you can hide my posts from him or block him from replying? I am trying to keep it all civil.

Unless there are posts that have been edited or removed then I really see nothing aggressive/rude/controversial about Robin's posts at 07:36 and 07:38; both contain (true) statements about the NHS, and neither contain any insults. Or have I missed something?

 

[Rorschach]

Unless there are posts that have been edited or removed then I really see nothing aggressive/rude/controversial about Robin's posts at 07:36 and 07:38; both contain (true) statements about the NHS, and neither contain any insults. Or have I missed something?

It's a long story but at the request of Noel both Robin and I came to a gentleman's agreement not to reply to each other on "off topic" matters such as these for the good of the forum as it quickly degenerated.

 

[sploo]

It's a long story but at the request of Noel both Robin and I came to a gentleman's agreement not to reply to each other on "off topic" matters such as these for the good of the forum as it quickly degenerated.

OK... so you want the right to make statements on a public forum but not have the other person counter them? So if Robin posts that your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries* you would be OK with that and wouldn't reply?

* Hopefully the comedy reference is known (and used so this doesn't come across as aggressive) - but the serious point stands.

 

[Lons]

It's very clear to most people especially when looking back at previous problem threads where much of the blame lies, a great shame but it generally is true that the person shouting foul instigates most of it.

 

[Jelly]

Free healthcare, no questions asked, no contribution needed, no incentive to live a healthy lifestyle/take care of yourself. It's treated as some kind of magic service that appears as if out of nowhere and for free and we keep getting told it's free. It isn't free, we all (mostly) pay for it and yet we allow ourselves and visitors to the country to abuse it.

There's a strong economic argument with data to substantiate it, to show that for provision of essential services means testing them inevitably ends up delivering worse average service at a higher overall cost.

It's counterintuitive and often "Feels Wrong" because it absolutely wouldn't work like that on the small scale that we're all familiar with from our personal finances... But that itself is a fairly common cognitive trap when dealing with massive phenomena.

Edit: Fixed link to amusing and relevant video.

 

[Rorschach]

OK... so you want the right to make statements on a public forum but not have the other person counter them? So if Robin posts that your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries* you would be OK with that and wouldn't reply?

* Hopefully the comedy reference is known (and used so this doesn't come across as aggressive) - but the serious point stands.

He is also free to make statements without me countering them (which I have not done since the agreement was reached).

He is welcome to make any statements he wishes on the topic of my ancestry.

 

[Rorschach]

There's a strong economic argument with data to substantiate it, to show that for provision of essential services means testing them inevitably ends up delivering worse average service at a higher overall cost.

It's counterintuitive and often "Feels Wrong" because it absolutely wouldn't work like that on the small scale that we're all familiar with from our personal finances... But that itself is a fairly common cognitive trap when dealing with massive phenomena.

I would suggest something far more radical than just means testing but anyway this is going way off topic now. If you wish to discuss the merits of NHS reform I would gladly do it on another thread if you wish to start one. This thread was on the moral and ethical implications of vaccine passports.

 

[Jelly]

I would suggest something far more radical than just means testing but anyway this is going way off topic now. If you wish to discuss the merits of NHS reform I would gladly do it on another thread if you wish to start one.

With what you said in previous posts, the impression I'm taking away is that you would prefer a fully marketised system... But are well aware that it would be deeply unpopular, hence trying to divert away from it now.



I continue to find all the logical disconnects between your positions bewildering:

All about the poor, young and unemployed, but also in favour of the exact kinds of systems and "personal responsibility" rhetoric which would harm those groups the most.​

​

Waxing lyrical about personal freedom irrespective of how it impacts on other people, but affronted by the media highlighting a disenfranchised group fighting for the recognition of their rights...​

I'm not sure I could cope with that level of cognitive dissonance.

 

[Rorschach]

With what you said in previous posts, the impression I'm taking away is that you would prefer a fully marketised system... But are well aware that it would be deeply unpopular, hence trying to divert away from it now.



I continue to find all the logical disconnects between your positions bewildering:

All about the poor, young and unemployed, but also in favour of the exact kinds of systems and "personal responsibility" rhetoric which would harm those groups the most.​

​

Waxing lyrical about personal freedom irrespective of how it impacts on other people, but affronted by the media highlighting a disenfranchised group fighting for the recognition of their rights...​

I'm not sure I could cope with that level of cognitive dissonance.

As I said, please start another thread if you would like to discuss my cognitive dissonance

 

[Noel]

@Noel I tried, I really did, I didn't reply to anything Robin posted since our ceasefire, Ignored them all, even the ones that really annoyed me. Robin though just can't help himself, he either cannot keep to a gentleman's agreement or never intended to in the first place. Maybe he is just trying to get threads shut down on purpose? I don't know. I've PM'd him to remind him of what he agreed to but he just ignores them. Is there some way you can hide my posts from him or block him from replying? I am trying to keep it all civil.

I think if your emotions are that fragile an Off Topic internet forum is perhaps somewhere you should learn to be a bit more light hearted, not take things so seriously and chill out a bit. There is always the ignore function.

 

[Rorschach]

I think if your emotions are that fragile an Off Topic internet forum is perhaps somewhere you should learn to be a bit more light hearted, not take things so seriously and chill out a bit. There is always the ignore function.

I have ignored them and didn't cause any trouble. You asked for things to calm down between us, but one party isn't holding up their end of the bargain.

 

[alanpo68]

Free healthcare, no questions asked, no contribution needed, no incentive to live a healthy lifestyle/take care of yourself. It's treated as some kind of magic service that appears as if out of nowhere and for free and we keep getting told it's free. It isn't free, we all (mostly) pay for it and yet we allow ourselves and visitors to the country to abuse it.

No that is the image the right wing media love to portray. The truth is somewhat different. People have become far more conscious of having a healthy lifestyle you only have to look at the explosion in healthy eating and gym use. Then you have things like the sugar tax and the smoking ban. The irony is that there is more pressure on the NHS precisely because people are looking after themselves and living longer.

As for visitors they don't get to abuse the NHS to get free treatment they need to pay the NHS surcharge.

Maybe that is why the right wing media are so opposed to lockdowns, social distancing, vaccinations and vaccine passports. I am sure they would love to lose a few hundred thousand elderly and disabled people. You know the ones who are a financial burden for the likes of yourself.

As you say your generation has sacrificed so much for the older generations during this pandemic. You didn't seem to mind though when the older generations were funding your education and things like child benefit. Maybe we should acknowledge that we are all in this together and that having a vaccine passport is just a way of giving back to a society that has given us so much.

 

[sploo]

Free healthcare, no questions asked, no contribution needed, no incentive to live a healthy lifestyle/take care of yourself.

Fortunately in the USA (where healthcare is exceptionally expensive), that's successfully incentivised people to lead healthy lifestyles - hence the low rates of obesity and heart disease.

Oh. Wait...

 

[profchris]

Fortunately in the USA (where healthcare is exceptionally expensive), that's successfully incentivised people to lead healthy lifestyles - hence the low rates of obesity and heart disease.

Oh. Wait...

Indeed so!

I think I'm right in saying that all the research into incentives is based on assumptions about all the other incentives and pressures on human decision-making remaining unchanged. Mainly because the modelling or maths becomes too complex otherwise. But changing one thing changes the overall system, other things don't remain unchanged in the way they work.

Real-life decision-making is insanely complicated - imagine lockdown is relaxed and you are thinking of eating out. Now write down everything (and I mean everything) which you'll think about in picking your restaurant/cafe/pub/street food stall. Don't forget the weather, the picky teenager who has to be included, what you ate last night ....

Now expand that to something like deciding on a healthcare system.

I think I might already have written that anyone who claims to have one, simple solution to a complex problem is almost certainly deluding themselves. If not, here it is.

Which is why, if I'm asked whether vaccine passports are a good idea, I will reply with a barrage of questions about who will run them, how they will work, who takes responsibility for errors (among a hundred others, some of which have been mentioned in this thread). And even once I have answers, I suspect my best response might be "Probably" or "Probably not".

 

[Robbo60]

I believe the NHS is amazing even though I once calculated how much I had paid in NI contributions and it was a fair chunk. Every serious medical procedure I have had as an adult was done privately via a Employer health care scheme but I didn't begrudge one penny I paid in NI. Saved more Daughter's life and several subsequent operations. It was the one tax I wouldn't have minded paying more of, IF it could have been guaranteed it went to the NHS. More Daughter now works in the NHS and it does not sound the most efficient organization in the World. Saying that the biggest private companies I have worked for also were inefficient and wasteful.

 

[Rorschach]

Looking good at the moment, maybe pressure will force the government to open faster, the vaccines seem to be working.

 

[D_W]

I missed this entire thread...but the idea of an expedited passport here in the states, I'd be fine with it as long as it was optional (as in, clearance for airlines and public trans to allow more relaxed rules for folks with an approved vaccine..

ORRRRR

big or, that must be included, proof of having had covid and recovered.

I have no idea why we'd believe that someone who recovered would need the vaccine as we have no data suggesting difference in outcomes yet. Second infection of any significance is probably well less than first infection after vaccine (I have a few relatives who got covid post vaccine, but in fairness, they managed to catch it about two weeks after vaccine when efficacy is assumed to be pretty good, but not the "great" that it is after 3 weeks.).

They had relatively mild cases (which one would expect anyway for their age group and fitness levels (but had marital strife over it equivalent to much more severe cases!)

I ride public trans in a "normal" economy. if someone was vaccinated and didn't wear a mask, I wouldn't care. If they previously had covid and didn't wear a mask, I wouldn't care. If they had neither and sat on a bus, I'd expect them to wear a mask.

 

[D_W]

Looking good at the moment, maybe pressure will force the government to open faster, the vaccines seem to be working.

View attachment 104934

Cases are dropping here, but faster than just due to the vaccine. earlier this week, there was an article "fauci concerned cases will stay at 70k and hover".

They're already below that point now (50k in the last couple of days?). Until or unless someone can test t-cell reactivity from regional samples, we really won't know how much of that is due to asymptomatic cases being higher than expected. It appears that to some extent that's the case as businesses and such here are at reduced capacity but have generally remained open other than at really high spikes, and even that was just for a short time.