UKWorkshop Server Upgrade Donation

[BucksDad]

Linking to the thread in here for attention because I don't believe posts in the help/announcements forum appear in 'New posts' that many use

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/ukworkshop-server-upgrade-donation.144766/

 

[Skeety]

I have recently seen something similar on another forum I frequent for the same amount in USD. Questioning if they are legit?

 

[BucksDad]

It is legal for the company who owns ukworkshop.co.uk and many other forums (GroupBuilder) to ask for donations I believe. Although it is a good question - I wonder if it falls foul of ASA guidelines - probably not enforceable seeing as they're not a UK based company.

It is certainly morally questionable appealing for donations under the pretense of a desperate need for funds when that may not be the case. However, I doubt GB are going to give us any true insight either way as to their financial position

 

[Against_The_Grain]

I get requests to “support” this forum almost monthly via private message from the administrator, its all a bit over the top but what do you expect from an American profit-driven company with its financial base in Panama?

They have no interest in the community, just your wallet contents!

 

[BucksDad]

Hmm I got a reply on the thread on the help forum but then it was locked. A typical reply

Unfortunately, their actions have now lost them revenue. I have cancelled my supporter renewal from auto renewing and won't do so again.

 

[Myfordman]

Few if any of the communities taken over by GroupBuilder have a good word to say about their business model. They are solely in it for the money and don't give a flying fig for the individual communities and what they promote. Money is the only thing they understand.
This quote seemed to sum them up quite well.
"A bit of googling suggests GroupBuilder's business model is to buy existing community forums, then "grow them" by saturating them with ads, which typically results in most of the founding members of a forum fleeing. So GroupBuilder is to community forums as Rolling Stone magazine famously described Goldman Sachs: “a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money.”"

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Apparently all their servers need upgrading, must be a complete shambles! This is only a very small selection of over 100 forums.

 

[AES]

I must say that when the idea of supporting UKW with a donation first came up, I was in principle in agreement.

I haven't done the searches re Group Builder that you gents have obviously done, but like the rest of us I guess, I have had numerous requests for funding since the take over, particularly within the last year or so.

Apart from what I consider the somewhat obnoxious wording of these requests (which HAS played a role in my decision), I have also re-considered the principle of monetary funding of UKW in it's present form.

I have now decided "definitely NOT".

In my own small way (and there are LOTS of other UKW members with the same/similar approach it seems), I consider that apart for the posts that I make here asking for help (which NEVER go without at least one helpful answer BTW), the posts that I do make here are mainly made to help others to the best of my ability. That IS definitely contributing to the overall value of UKW, IMO anyway.

Take the latest example, where I am having electronics problems with my scroll saw:

To remove the offending PCB seems to be a complex and difficult task. Having searched over "the whole" of the internet, I have not found any guidance at all. So I am now in progress of detailing the removal procedure step by step, supported by photos and diagrams.

I of course understand that the resulting post will only be of help to other owners of the same machine, but it is also true that AFAIK, my resulting post will be completely new information not otherwise available anywhere else. Surely that IS "added value" to UKW? Though producing that post will not have cost me any money, by the time it's finished it WILL have taken a lot of my valuable (to me) time.

I therefore consider that, rightly or wrongly, my post will be at least an "adequate" contribution to UKW.

Therefore my credit card will continue to remain firmly housed in my wallet.

FWIW

 

[Blackswanwood]

I've never really understood what it is that irritates some about the forum owners business model. It's pretty much the case that if you are not paying for the use of the product when online you are the product - that's just how it works.

We get a place to ask questions/discuss things/vent our spleens with people who generally have a shared interest in stuff that's done in workshops. Obviously the provider needs to monetise it in some way but there is no compulsion on anyone to pay. If anyone doesn't like the way the forum owner likes to position things when asking for contributions there is no downside to just ignoring the request. What's not to like? It's not as if they've got their "national treasure" dad to write a book and are then diverting the proceeds those who bought it thought were going to a charitable foundation to build a spa in their back garden.

There are other equally good forums that operate with different models but this one (despite any imperfections) remains the most active and popular so they must be doing something right.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

I've never really understood what it is that irritates some about the forum owners business model. It's pretty much the case that if you are not paying for the use of the product when online you are the product - that's just how it works.

It’s the fact that it’s disingenuous is what’s irritates me, they claim to be on hard times and need to upgrade equipment but more likely is that it’s all profit, running a forum has very little costs and they don’t need £4000 per forum for servers, that’s ludicrous.

There’s also a question of how legal it is, it’s essentially fraud if it’s not genuine.

 

[paulrbarnard]

It’s the fact that it’s disingenuous is what’s irritates me, they claim to be on hard times and need to upgrade equipment but more likely is that it’s all profit, running a forum has very little costs and they don’t need £4000 per forum for servers, that’s ludicrous.

There’s also a question of how legal it is, it’s essentially fraud if it’s not genuine.

That’s speculation. FWIW the cost of cloud and on prem has increased substantially in the last few years.

 

[akirk]

I've never really understood what it is that irritates some about the forum owners business model. It's pretty much the case that if you are not paying for the use of the product when online you are the product - that's just how it works.

In many cases yes - but equally in many cases no - there are thousands of small forums around the internet which are run not for profit and where neither payment is required, nor are the members the product - I know because I own and run such forums. Why - because I believe in the opportunity for discussion in certain areas...

I also know the cost of running a forum and server - I own a business which builds websites / hosts websites / etc. we have a number of servers. Yes - when you have a big forum where there are thousands or more new messages every hour, then you do get into a more expensive form of hosting, but this forum is not that.

A quick look at the IP on which this forum is hosted (i.e. the physical server) - there would appear to be 488 domains on there - that is hardly a specialist server needed for this forum... now if each of those needed $4k - $5k to upgrade that would be one very expensive bit of hosting kit!

I also agree with others - there is no value to a forum outside the member contributions, we are providing the product for them in that sense and do so free of charge - the owners have a commercial value from our contributions - I do find the continual requests for money a bit tiresome and out of place - the active moderators are volunteers, so the owners have a business where the content is provided free of charge, the time needed to run the forum is provided free of charge and then they want to charge those same people to read their own material

If it all costs too much and is not viable - I will happily take on ownership and move the forum onto one of my servers - I wouldn't want the owners to be out of pocket!

 

[Jester129]

I cancelled my 'subscription' some time ago and got several pleading notes requesting my dosh. I have not complied and will not do so.
Makes a change to be proven right for once!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I cancelled the auto renew and it made no difference. Next time maybe. I have no objection to a small annual amount for something I use so much but I do object to the auto renew.

 

[Daniel2]

I cancelled the auto renew and it made no difference. Next time maybe. I have no objection to a small annual amount for something I use so much but I do object to the auto renew.

I agree. I also object strongly to the auto renew default.
It's quite a presumption on their part.

 

[AJB Temple]

I used to subscribe as a supporter, as I valued the forum and wanted to support it. However, I did not all all like the T&Cs imposed and made a fuss about the absence of clarity regarding cancellation of paid membership. This being 'UK' forum (clue is in the name) it seemed that compliance with english law would be nice. The T&Cs were changed and a refund was forthcoming. That was then....

Since then the T&Cs have been radically revised and there is no provision for refund of supporter donations, and a considerable amount of new or revised terms, such as dealing with AI and giving forum owners the ability at their own discretion to levy penalties on users. See opening clause in bold. I doubt they would have a cat in hells chance of UK enforcement as the "contract" terms are (in my non advisory opinion) non-complaint with UK law. The forum owners retain a perpetual licence to use and alter all content for free in perpetuity. For these reasons these days I never post pictures, or work in progress, or advice that could in any way be controversial.

 

[Spectric]

Are things not being overly complicated, surely if you were to provide a service then you would expect some form of payment.

A quick look at the IP on which this forum is hosted (i.e. the physical server) - there would appear to be 488 domains on there - that is hardly a specialist server needed for this forum... now if each of those needed $4k - $5k to upgrade that would be one very expensive bit of hosting kit!

If all these forums use the same servers then getting donations from all forums seems the fair way to do it, they probably realise that they cannot get the required amount from just one so are fishing in all of them to reach targets. If you are selling something for say £500 you don't ask £500 but maybe £600 knowing you will have wiggle room.

I must admit that I have never seen where any financial benefit can be gained from running a forum such as the UKW, perhaps @akirk can enlighten us. For me it is having the knowledge and experience of the other members available which is an invaluable asset, many being lifelong woodworkers and makers where experience is priceless and knowing that you can throw a question out there and get advice can be really helpful when woodworking is not your trade or first skill.

 

[porker]

I think there are several points that irk people.
- The tone of the requests seem to imply it is almost a charitable setup - it isn't. It is a commercially operated business

- Donations are not normally solicited by bona fide commercial businesses

I also manage a big public facing IT setup and as @akirk states, the costs of operating servers is way less than they are implying to run a forum like this. Maybe if you factor in the behind the scenes people who are paid to keep the service up then the costs go up a little (not talking about the unpaid mods here)

They make their money by selling advertising. As you know if you are not signed in, the site is plastered in adverts. No idea what the ratio is, but the site will be hit by thousands of non members searching for something and they hope they will click through an advert. That is their business model. They have been systematically acquiring forums like this for a few years. In 2015 Torstar bought a 56% stake in VerticalScope (who own this forum) for $200M, so there must be some money in forums and the hits they attract.

I made a point with the owners when it changed hands a few years ago that I don't believe they complied with GDPR and just because they operate their servers abroad does not absolve them from GDPR responsibilities. (They ignored my questions).

The issue with forums and any social media is that the content is the value provided for free by its members (you lose all rights to it BTW when you post it) but the cost is running the servers and the service. The revenue is generated by advertising

 

[thetyreman]

I don't get enough from this forum anymore for it to be worthwhile donating real money to it, there used to be a real community here but it has changed, the good members have left and been driven out by poor moderation and an unwillingness to ban people, and this was before the takeover.

 

[TRITON]

Im on a bike forum that been going for nearly 30 years and in that time they have never,never ever asked for either a subscription or a donation of any kind.

Most forums do advertising, they get money from that. Most forums do links, they get money from that.